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Mar 25th, 2025
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Evangelical missionary: "Now is this here Orthodox Church 'Bible believing'?"
Orthodox Christian:"Bible believing?!...hell, we wrote it!"
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In addition to the impetus that Catholics and Orthodox are not saved, the cradle Orthodox and Catholic countries are low-hanging fruit for the Evangelicals. They can proselytize, spread a lot of cash, and not get shot or hung for it as in much if not most of the non-Catholic or non-Orthodox world.
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We are easy marks because we actually believe that there is such a thing as truth. We are consistent so they know where to attack us. We actually believe that truth is knowable. The typical evangelical is all over the map. The only thing they believe to be true the statement "Jesus Christ is Lord". The moment anyone offers content to that most basic statement they've gotcha. Anything beyond that statement is considered to be arrogant, triumphalistic, too confining, judgmental, etc. etc. They attack the heart. It is very dangerous and damaging. At least they don't have guns, or bombs. Then again, it might be better if they had.
CDL
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Ugh! Way back when the USSR was falling apart but had not quite collapsed, I was in L'viv and encountered some young people from a "Mission" in Alabama who were attempting to proselytize, despite being unable to speak Ukrainian (or even Russian), and despite knowing absolutely nothing about Greek-Catholicism (the majority religion in L'viv) or Eastern Orthodoxy (the largest minority religion in L'viv). Since I do speak English, these would-be missionaries latched on to me briefly. When I suggested that most people in L'viv are already Christians, and could do with some support from other Christians to maintain their faith rather than attempt to destroy it, the missionaries were horrified at the very idea that the churches - which they obviously considered some sort of pagan temples - could possibly have any connection with genuine Christianity.
I don't think they even succeeded in making contact with the Evangelical Protestants in L'viv. All this at a time when L'viv was in a religious ferment, with the Greek-Catholic renaissance, the opening of numerous churches all over the city, the beginnings of a distinct Ukrainian Orthodox identity, processions visible to anyone who would stand still long enough to watch - it was all quite lovely except the missionaries, who were quite befuddled. When I suggested that they go home to Alabama where they could find both Greek-Catholics and Eastern Orthodox who speak English and could provide them with the means to understand the phronema of the Christians in Ukraine, they were shocked at such an idea - after all, they knew everything and the locals knew nothing! But they left town, and the people in L'viv had more interesting things to concern themselves with.
Similar shenanigans have been going on in the Middle East for a long time. These leeches collect money from Protestants (especially in the US Bible Belt) to "evangelize in the Moslem countries" and, on arrival, discover that converting a Moslem to any form of Christianity is not merely difficult, but is punishable by death. Since they need to do something to convince their financial supporters that their efforts are productive, they set out to "convert" the indigenous Christians instead. In the process they divide families, cause horrible confusion and strife, and all too often the ultimate beneficiaries are the Moslems.
Fr. Serge
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I heard on the radio RC Sproul outline his plans to broadcast into Ukraine, apparently he does not consider it sufficiently Christianized.
I think it is very important to support organizations that support the Eastern Church.
I support CNEWA and Aid to the Church in Need.
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Unfortunately, efforts are becoming more sophisticated and centralized, as this document shows. We know a couple who have been training to be missionaries to the Ukraine for the past 1 and a half years. They've signed on with an organization that has assisted them in learning the language, obtaining the right legal documentation, connecting them with other Protestant missionaries there, obtaining housing there, and more.
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Wondering,
How close are you to this couple? Do they consider Catholics and Orthodox Christians? (some extreme evangelicals don't).
A member of our church, who experienced the yoke of communism first hand, and worshipped in underground Greek Catholic Churches in Ukraine has said that she is disappointed that some of her evangelical friends try to get her "saved."
She says, "they do not seem to respect the fact that we risked sanctions, jail or worse to worship Christ in our underground church."
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This issue was the breaking point for an already distanced relationship. When they asked us to be "missionary partners" who sponsored them every month and we declined, we didn't hear from them again. This is the end point (thus far) of a long and sordid history of extremism and church hopping. They are in some Judeo-Christian sect now, which I understand is making great inroads in places such as Ukraine due to their centralized and localized efforts. We never talked to them about their view of the salvation of other Christians since their focus was on converting Jews.
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Catholic Gyoza Member
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It's always nice to hear an Irishman say shenanigans!  As far as the protestants thinking that Catholics and Orthodox are not Christians. How much more Pagan can you get than dancing with snakes and drinking strychnine?  
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Joined: Feb 2002
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I am unable to say what I think of this whole sordid mess lest I wind up in the confessional long enough to give it a new coat of paint! To say that this upsets me is the understatement of the decade!
Trying to be charitable at best, we need to pray for the conversion of those who have gone over to Europe to "convert the heathens" (it has happened before) and we should also pray that people like R.C. Sproul fail in their plans.
Brother Ed
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A few more thoughts on this gar-bage. Overemphasizes the corporate aspect of faith (to the exclusion of the personal aspect)
There is the potential barrier posed by the Orthodox concept of the Holy Spirit, which taken to an extreme seems to limit the Spirit to working only in the corporate context of the church. The idea of the Holy Spirit working in the lives of the individuals who comprise the church, a concept so important among evangelicals, is foreign to the Orthodox mind.
And we see how wonderfully well such independence of thought has fostered complete and serene unity amongst Protestants, don't we? If Jesus said in John 17 that our unity would be a witness for God to unbelievers, then what does Protestantism say to them?
Causes people to think the church building is the only place God�s Spirit works Orthodox lay people see the church and often specifically the church building itself as the place where God�s Spirit can work. They speak of feeling the presence of God in the worship there. It is difficult for them to conceive of meeting God in a building that is not a church building (such as a rented theater, school, cultural hall, or house).
Of course, if by "meeting with God" you mean having your emotions jiggled by thumping guitar music, drums, and a preacher who alternately yells and whispers while telling weepy stories, then I guess that can happen anywhere. But the true union with our Lord Jesus Christ comes only through reception of the Eucharist, and that takes place only in church, not in some pseudo-nightclub with "Jaaaaaazuz pictures" plastered along the walls. You will accomplish little by criticizing the Orthodox adherence to Tradition, but you can demonstrate your own conviction that the Bible is authoritative in itself. During conversations with Orthodox people, turn repeatedly to the Bible in discussing spiritual matters (Acts 17:11).
Dear Orthodox people:
As your new "friends" the following question: "Since the Bible is authorative, and we are to only believe that which is in the Bible, WHERE exactly does the Bible give a list of the books which we are to accept as canonical?"
Then stand back and watch the fun begin. You can make monkeys out of these people. You just have to learn how, grasshoppa! Tends to replace Jesus as the mediator
Another obvious barrier to personal faith from the use of icons is that icons and the saints they represent tend to replace Jesus as the mediator between man and God in the minds of the people. Since the saints seem more accessible and more �human,� some Orthodox people pray to the saints more than to Jesus.
Well, then the next time you git sick, don't you go asking any of yer Billy Bob buddies in their polyesther suits to intercede for you, ya heah?
Show that Jesus is the only mediator between God and man
1 Timothy 2:4-5 makes this clear: �For there is one God and one mediatorbetween God and man, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men�the testimony given in its proper time.�
Completely out of context, as is done with all false cults. They grab one verse and build a doctrine around it, ignoring the rest of the Holy Scriptures. The mediatorship being spoken about in the Holy Scriptures is that of the Great High Priest, which involves His performing YOM KIPPUR in the "tabernacle made without hands" in the heavenlies. This is found in Hebrews 9 and 10. Complete falsehood and deception involved here from misusing the scriptures. Offices
The Orthodox Church has the three classical Christian offices: bishop, priest (or presbyter) and deacon. The bishop is the highest.
Yes, and it is also scriptural. Ask your "new friends" why it is that if they pride themselves on being "Bible believers" why they don't have bishops in their assemblies? The stage of ignorance:
An Orthodox person usually has not been taught the concept of salvation by faith. Either he is unaware of how to be saved, or he thinks he will be saved by works and by participating in the sacraments. Even if he reads the Scriptures, he feels unable to have certainty of salvation.
This is another deception. What Evangelicals really mean is by "faith alone", which is Luther's man made and convoluted system. Salvation is by faith, but if you Evangelicals would actually read your Bible with some amount of understanding, you would see that the expression of faith is WORKS!!! which you deny.
The Sacraments are salvific in nature because they are means by which we enter the New Covenant (baptism) and when we sin, are forgiven (confession) and are restored to union with Christ (Eucharist). Your dislike of the Sacraments does not nullify the promise of John 6, which says that only those who "eat His Flesh and drink His Blood" have eternal life. Maybe it is you who had better do some serious thinking about the condition of your soul!!
Certainty of salvation is another of those "fond invetions" by Protestants which has no basis in the scriptures. St. Paul warned his "children" in all of his epistles (except Philemon) against falling from Christ. The idea of once "saved - always saved" cannot be found in scripture, unless, of course, one tortures the scriptures, takes verses out of context, and ignores whole passages of warnings against falling away from the Faith. No one can be sure of his/her final destination, but you people are devils for exploiting this with your false doctrines! (2) The stage of confusion:
At this stage, the Orthodox person is hearing preaching and reading of the Word of God, but still confuses salvation by works with salvation by faith. He seems to be thinking. �Certainly salvation is by faith! But we must do good works in order to go to Paradise.�
You know, that is EXACLY what Jesus said. You know, Jesus, the One Who is called the Judge in your Bible. He said this:
[color:#3333FF]Jhn 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
What happened? Did someone cut those verses out of your KJV 1611AV?? Or maybe you think that Jesus made a mistake when He said that He would judge all mankind and reward us according to what we have done!?!
Of course, if you won't believe Jesus, perhaps St. Paul will impress you more. You guys are so fond of the book of Romans, go over to Romans 2: 5 - 10 and STUDY IT!! Pay attention especially to verse 7.[/color] Russian Orthodoxy can by summarized by three �M�s. It is mysterious, mystical, and magical. The sacraments are referred to as mysteries and much of the popular understanding of a person�s relationship to God through rituals is akin to mysticism and magic. Just as a child might believe his rabbit�s foot brings good luck, so is the popular understanding of faith in Orthodoxy.
Isn't your first urge, upon reading this nonsense, an uncharitable desire to slap the silly snot out of this pompous jackass? (Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner!) They perceive the idea of praying a sinner�s prayer as nothing more than a Protestant ritual that might help them.
And that is all it is -- a useless Protesant ritual which does nothing for the soul since it cannot unite one with the One Who is the source of life as the Eucharist does. I cannot begin to count the number of people I have seen trot forward to perform this ritual week after week because they could not get "assurance of salvation". I cannot count the number of people who have performed it and then, after a short stint in the local Prottie funhouse, are never seen in the assembly again! Protestant ritual indeed. And worthless!!
Oh, and one more thing. I cannot recall the number of times that I heard some Fundymentalist preacher tell the congregation that you would get salvation only if you prayed the "Sinner's Prayer" and meant it with all your heart! In other words, salvation was not a free gift, but was conditioned upon doing something -- i.e., saying the prayer in a certain way (i.e., "with all your heart!)! Isn't that the definition of "works salvation"?? when you earn something because of something you first do? Seems like infant baptism, where the child is helpless to do anything other than receive the grace of God, is more of a free gift, doesn't it? Many of its rituals are classic examples of syncretism. Praying to icons,for example, to invoke the help of departed saints, is not too far removed from ancestor worship in pagan, animistic cultures. Grace is received through a variety of magical,ritualistic methods. The Church�s concept of God is extremely mystical and mysterious.
GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!! Liar!!! Well, guess I'll wind up in the confessional after all! **sigh** Sorry, I cannot just read this stuff and maintain an irenic disposition, especially when these people did a lot of things which hurt my family with their skewed theology and strange and bizarre rituals. Of course, I can't see any of the Early Fathers being especially irenic towards heresy either! (Something about a bishop slapping a heretic at Nicea immediately comes to mind!) I hope that somehow the bishops in Eastern Europe can begin a program which teaches the average layman to rip these guys' arguments to shreds,and, ultimate to wind up converting some of them to the Truth. Then maybe they will return to America and wind up evangelizing those who sent them to Europe! Now that would be worth the price of admission to see! Brother Ed
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Brother Ed,
We need such a class here.
CDL
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Brother Ed,
If you are so mad about it then do something. I am sure there is a Baptist Church next door. Hand out tracts, make friends, preach the Good News, live a virtuous life, ask these people over for dinner, etc...
Oh wait, the Catholic Church doesn't do that anymore. I am sorry, never mind.
Last edited by Ray S.; 03/16/07 10:53 PM.
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Who is more godless and pagan the idol worshipping RC's or the idol worshipping Orthodox?
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Brother Ed,
I agree with you entirely. I would add to your critic of the so-called "sinner's prayer" that there is no biblical basis for it. It is not found in Scripture at all. I've long believed that the basis for American "culture" is actually cynicism which of course is "anti-culture" by definition. Evangelicalism has tapped into that cynicism and has created a religion not based upon any depth of understanding or purity but upon manipulation. It works to some extent. We are more or less used to its corrosive character but when it is taken to a culture that actually has a culture it is like pouring acid upon it.
In the late nineteenth century lawyer by trade, and I can't remember his name, developed what we know as modern evangelicalism. Then it was called revivalism. This attorney had a grasp of psychological tricks that would move people to make a decision for "christ". The language he used was and is quite captivating but when investigated with discernment quite empty.
It's all very secular and has virtually no content. I will admit that many who start down this path reform their lives but most become disatisfied after a bit. The only alternative, unless they admit they have no connection with truth and convert, is to turn up the emotional manipulation.
CDL, wishing I could remember that fellow's name. (Gundeson or something like that was his middle name).
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