www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News "Ukrainian people not ready for a national Church"

There is never a good time to support schism, but I cannot think of a worse possible time than the middle of Great Lent. The Ukraine will still be here after Pascha. Let us concentrate on our own shortcomings now, and put off such talk until after Post.

Alexandr

This was probably discussed years ago (before my time), but it seems so relevant to our discussion that I thought I would post the link. It is a fascinating discussion --

See http://ncronline.org/mainpage/specialdocuments/taft.htm

Dear Aleksandr,

The purpose of my insignificant post above was not to support "schism" in any sense, but to address an issue that is important from the standpoint of those Orthodox Ukrainians who wish to have a Kyivan Patriarchate that is completely autocephalous and independent of Moscow.

For Ukrainian Orthodox in the main, this is a matter of justice and is therefore more than an adequate topic during the Great Fast.

Also, if the ROC and other Orthodox Churches with Patriarchates simply declared them to the world, how is the Ukrainian Orthodox doing the same thing "uncanonical?" Why are Ukrainian Orthodox not allow to do what the Russian Orthodox Church itself did when it moved to unilaterally declare itself a Patriarchate?

To defend issues of justice is not to desecrate the Fast - but to fulfill God's command to keep it in the best possible way in terms of "breaking the chains" etc.

Finally, your reference to "the Ukraine" is no longer the way the independent Ukraine refers to itself. It is no longer a provincial vassal of Russia, whether Bolshevik or Tsarist.

I'm sure you did not intend to use that offensive term in that way, however.

A good Fast to you.

Alex

From the article


and that from a religious leader. Very nice.

Dear Alex,

Schism is schism, no matter how one looks at it. As far as "Ukraine" vs "The Ukraine", well, it is a matter of perspective, wouldn't you say? I will place further comments on hold until after the journey through Great Lent.

Alexandr

Although I support having a Canonical Ukrainian Patriarchate, i find the above highly offensive.....

This man is DESPICABLE

That again considering what organization this so called spiritual leader represents, I am not surprised.

For a scholar and a religious leader to say "to Hell with Moscow" is not precisely edifying, certainly. But one must read things in context. It becomes clear from the balance of the text of the interview that Father Taft was not literally seeking damnation of Moscow. He was suggesting, in undiplomatic language, that in this specific question Moscow has no right to a decisive voice and that a moment has come when it is time to cease worrying about Moscow's opinion. In that, he is correct.

One reason for such outbursts is that many people have become supremely weary of the Moscow Patriarchate's inability to recover from the "culture of lies" that was the USSR. Every time that Moscow attempts to insist that the "liquidation" of the Greek-Catholic Church in 1946 was absolutely canonical, they merely shoot themselves in the head all over again. Moscow would be better employed reviewing all of its own public statements between, say, the early nineteen-thirties and the present, and then notify the public as to which statements are authentic and which statements originated with the Soviet authorities.

Fr. Serge

It is also my belief that an autocephalous Ukrainian Patriarchate should come about.


He makes what a would consider a number of disputable assertions and some sweeping generalizations. This statement


Is just flat wrong.

The "To Hell with Moscow", which of course does not mean wishing their literal damnation, was just one of a series of offensive remarks. Some others that stood out include




He manages to fit neatly almost all stereotypes on could think of in regards to the Christian East in a single interview.

To me it's simply unbelievable.

FLAT OUT LIE. I would say that Ukraine is 80 to 90 % Orthodox.

It is certainly the habit of Father Taft to express himself . . . ah . .. forthrightly! But that neither renders him despicable (I've known him for about 50 years, and he is certainly not despicable), nor destroys the accuracy of what he may be pointing to.

To take just one example: I'm seldom inclined to believe ecclesiastical statistics, and I wouldn't think of believing them in the setting of the post-Communist countries. Sorry, but they are not reliable.

But why talk about the post-Communist countries? In the "good old USA" several years ago, a group of former Protestants who were becoming Orthodox were approaching a certain jurisdiction. The jurisdiction wanted facts and figures about this group, so these were provided. Unfortunately, the Orthodox hierarch in question was so unaccustomed to honest statistics that he telephoned the head of the group knocking at the door, to say there must be some mistake, because the number of parishioners provided to him was far too small to support the works of this group (including a seminary, a publishing house, full-time paid clergy, and so on). The head of the group responded that he was in a position to know, and the statistics were kept with scrupulous accuracy; if the hierarch cared to visit, he would gladly show the hierarch the records.

The hierarch then demanded to be told where all the money was coming from to pay the bills. The head of the group responded "our faithful tithe, quite dependably. How do your existing faithful support the Church?"

Get the idea?

Father Serge

Yes Father, I get the idea, our Orthodox hierarchy is all corrupt and the Catholic Churches is not......

They are all angels....

That's what you are trying to say is it not?

Corruption? I can not start naming names here, but I am from BOSTON... Get the idea?

And the fact that you are defending this Father who tells the Moscow Patriarchate or anybody for that meter to go to hell raises questions also.

Any stereotype will have a grain of truth or some example we can point to say "see this is example, it's how they are, it's true". That doesn't make stereotyping right, acceptable or even accurate.

I'm sorry Fr. Taft wants to play that game.

In the spirit of the lent I will not get into this anymore.

Father Serge didn't say this at all. In fact, the only thing that it points to is that Protestants are better at tithing than both Orthodox AND Catholics - which is generally (sadly) TRUE!

As to telling Moscow to "go to hell", it isn't directed to the Patriarch or the Russian Church; just as telling the Roman Curia to 'go to hell' with regards to the Eastern Catholic Churches means no disrespect to the Pope or the Latin Church.

Given my knowledge of the situation in Russia gained from discussions with many Russians, this is a pretty accurate description of where the MOP currently stands. For more on this, I encourage you to read John Binns, An Introduction to the Christian Orthodox Churches (Cambridge University Press, 2003).

In particular, I note his discussion of the current divisions between progressive and reactionary strains in Orthodoxy. After describing the depressing book-burning in Ekaterinburg, Russia, where the works of the modern Orthodox writers Alexander Schmemann, John Meyendorff and Alexander Men were destroyed, he writes: "A strong and determined conservative and traditional majority will remain, alongside an open and progressive minority, both of which will be held together by a cautious episcopate. This coalition of opinions, both of which are deeply rooted in and integral to Orthodox Church life, will continue to be involved with ecumenism and other churches, but will challenge and reshape the way that ecumenical organizations function."