www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Do you want to be healed?

Which brings to mind a question. Which would they miss more, us or our wallets.? Hmmmm!

Personally, I did not see the introduction of inclusive language as necessary. But I don't see it as a reason to leave either. After all, the Revised Liturgy deleted the filioque, which was a MUCH more important issue.

I'm a cantor at a parish that has introduced the new pew books. Along with the other cantors of my parish, we are learning the new music, most of it improved by correctly accented English. There are many options for the different parts of the liturgy, and some of the new (to me, not really new) options are quite beautiful and I'm looking forward to singing them.

For the first couple months, we're going to be doing all Option A music until everyone is familiar, then move on to Option B. I can see that some of the people in the pews are having difficulty with finding their way through the pew books because of all the options, but I think that problem will resolve fairly quickly. In two or three years, the vast majority of parishioners will be able to sing most of the non-changeable portions of the liturgy without notation, and will use the pew books only for the propers.

The major problem right now is that we're all so focused on watching for revised language and notes that it's hard to focus on being prayerful. But ... that too will pass.

All in all, I really don't see the changes, particularly the inclusive language, as anything to leave the Church over. The Ruthenian Church will survive!

I think you should consider your actions from the viewpoint of Father Robert. In effect, you issued him an ultimatum -- choose you or obedience to his bishop. He very rightly chose obedience to his bishop. He further invited you to leave when it would not cause a disruption to the liturgy. While his response was no doubt disappointing, and probably also hurtful, to you, you really left him no other choice. Ultimatums rarely achieve good results for either party.

No, Bedware did not issue the ultimatum! That is the whole point. The revisionists and Archbishop Schott issued the ultimatum. Read the letter.

"This and only this text" no exceptions, no appeal, no discussion, period.

That is the ultimatum. Either you accept this nonsense, the inclusive language, and join us in leaving the Ruthenian recension for a hybrid Liturgy, or you're disloyal, you're disobedient, you're a rebel, you're not wanted here.

It is Schott and the bishops who have issued in writing, their ultimatum.

Sophia, you are absolutely right about one thing, "Ultimatums rarely achieve good results for either party". But it is the Archbishop and his revisionist committee that have done this, and no one else.

Nick

No, it won't pass. We suffered with portions of this awful music for a number of years at St. John Cathedral. If anything, it keeps getting worse. No one sings the new music except the cantor.

If the people at the cathedral still hate it after several years they are not going to all of a sudden like it.

The Revised Liturgy is NOT attractive. It is chasing people away. We left the cathedral and now go to St. Elias. If they are forced to start the Revised Liturgy we will go elsewhere.

If you don't believe me come see for yourself. Drop in at the cathedral any Sunday morning. You will leave crying and angry at what Archbishop Schott has done to our Liturgy. The cathedral used to being singing parish. Not anymore.

I'm sorry to hear what has happened at the Cathedral. So, as the Cathedral goes, so goes the diocese? I'm hoping my pastor will hold out against this catastrophe.

It would not be acknowledged.
The beautiful and holy contribution of women in our Church is not to be equated with the "feminist element". The "feminist element" is an intentional agenda to neutralize and emasculate the language of our worship. All women I know, including my wife, are offended by this radical agenda (although my wife feels that communion with Rome takes precedence over the sins of the revisionists). It is no secret that I am in a quandary over this. Once the inclusive language is introduced, the door is ajar and the smoke of Satan becomes more dense. Do not be surprised if you begin to see the infiltration of things such as reiki, enneagram, mandalas, labyrinths, eco-spirituality and sophia worship. Even though Rome has not promulgated inclusive language for the Roman Catholic Church, individual dissenting priests have taken it upon themselves to use it anyway. And now we see all these new age, hinduistic, wiccan practices infiltrating the Church of Rome (predominately with the nuns). I am convinced that it all begins with inclusive language--a foot in the door so to speak.

Be watchful!

I personally like the new books. For many many reasons.

My parish introduced them about 4 weeks ago, right when we got them, and we've been working with them. Father has given talks on the meaning of the changes and where the major changes are, and we cantors are helping out as best we can with explaining it.

Like Sophia said, there's a bit of fumbling going on in the pews, but we're trying to lessen this by telling folks where to put their ribbons before liturgy begins.

The general consensus around the parish is that people like the new books but that it's a lot of work using them right now... wait, I remember hearing somewhere that "liturgy" meant "work".

There are some who don't like it of course, but their biggest gripe has been that we're not using Slavonic right now in the transition period -- we will return to Slavonic as soon a people are comfortable with the new books (I pray!).

As for those who detest them, I wonder if people aren't just looking for an excuse to leave anyway...?

I'll also agree with Sophia that this is not a good reason to leave the Church. You should have a better one, like the lack of true monasticism in our Church and the proliferation of the so-called "Byzantine-" style Latin orders.

Sadly, I feel that this is also the opinion of our Hierarchs.
I see that you do not address the non-Traditional use of inclusive language?

Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ. (St Athanasius)

Dear Recluse,
I was mentioning the contribution of the feminine element sort of "tongue-in-cheek" by ending their list with the reference to the nursing home enterprise. I am truly sorry however that you are so disturbed by this revision. You are a valuable contribution to our church and I would hate to see you leave. That being said, isn't it kind of redundant to say "for us men and our salvation"? It could be looked upon as instead of saying, "Lord, Jesus Christ, have mercy on me, a sinner" and changing it to, "Lord , Jesus Christ, have mercy on me, Robert, a sinner. Does one need to say me Robert, or by just saying me is that enough? Us men could also be seen as redundant language, don't need to say both. I know this is reaching, but any glimmer of light I can offer to you to retain your presence in our Metropolia is worth a shot.

Isn't it a hallmark of the Eastern liturgy to be redundant?

You are correct. So much for my argument.

I appreciate that Theo. But I have not left yet. I have a funny feeling that this "revised" Liturgy will not stand the test of time. Having said that, the word "men" (anthropos) in the Creed is the Traditional wording. Now we know that nothing should be added or subtracted from the Creed--and this is why the Filioque is not included in the revision (and rightly so because it is an addition). Now what gives us the right to delete (or not translate) the word "anthropos"? Again, I must reiterate, there was no call from the rank and file to have horizontal inclusive language in our Liturgy. This was not an issue in our Church.

It was only an issue for the revisionists.

Theologos,
Don't worry about arguing someone into the church. It is the Holy Spirit who convicts people of such things. The greatest thing you can do is pray for all of us, believers and non-believers, to respond to the workings of the Holy Spirit in our lives. May God have mercy on us all!

I don't remember having welcomed you to the board (I probably just missed the thread where everyone said hello), so I'll also say welcome now!

It is okay Wondering. Theo and I are good friends outside of cyberspace!