www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization An Evangelical Guide on converting the Godless Orthodox and BCs

His name was Charles Grandison Finney. He is revered in Fundamentalist circles. He did indeed develope a system of "evangelism" which is used to this very day which eschewed anything to do with the Sacraments and instead focused on the use of the intellect (making a decision for Jaaaaaayzuz!).

There was a very good book I read years ago after I became a Calvinist which discussed this system and likened it to the same methodology which the Communists used to make converts in their mass meetings. The preaching styles of both camps uses highly psychological means to bring the potential convert to a fever pitch of emotion and then calls for a resolution of this emotional turmoil by inviting the potential convert to join the movement.

It was said of Finney that after he left the town, having had one of his "revival services", that the work of the churches he left behind became much harder. Towns Finney had visited became referred to as "burned out districts."

As for the other question -- i.e., what am I doing about it? Our parish has a wonderful invitational series of brochures. I have handed out some of them to people, have discussed the Faith with some of my friends, have sent them letters, have participated in other forums which defend the Faith, and at one time was talking with Fr. Mike about developing a ministry of evangelization and visitation in our neighborhood. All I wanted to do was to find one other person to go out with me and visit the household around our parish with literature and the readiness to defend the Faith.

But, as you know, unlike Fundamentalism, the Catholic Faith is not a "Lone Ranger" faith. I understand the concepts of hierarchy and authority and was not about to undertake this on my own, especially since I would be seen as speaking for St. Ann's parish. Fr. Mike became sick and the project fell to the wayside.

Perhaps when warm weather comes I might go visit some of my neighbors where I live. That sounds like a good idea.

And in case you wonder why my post was stinging in its presentation, I think you might find that converts like Carson and I tend to be a bit upset that people we trusted misled us. We placed our faith in people who have been seminary trained, who know that their brand of belief doesn't go any further back than 1517 and the heretics of the Reformation, and they misled us and kept us from experiencing the blessing we have found in the true Faith. I tend to be a little less than cordial with those who willingly shut their eyes to the facts, deny the truth, and hold on to lies while they mislead others and create chaos in the Body of Christ.

I seem to remember someone else feeling the same way:

Mar 3:5And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched [it] out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.

Brother Ed

Brother Ed,

I didn't mean that statement to you personally. Of course, I was being sarcastic in the hopes it might fire up fellow readers. It seems that discussion of evangelization seem to fall on deaf ears in the BCC circles.

I hope you know where I am coming from�

Yours in Christ!

Brother Ed,

My heart beats with yours. I'd like to comment on one sentence in particular.

"We placed our faith in people who have been seminary trained, who know that their brand of belief doesn't go any further back than 1517 and the heretics of the Reformation, and they misled us and kept us from experiencing the blessing we have found in the true Faith."

I was a pastor for several years in the UMC and will have to take some blame for the situation many of the people of my churches suffered. I knew better than I could offer. Most professors and pastors may not have or if they did they were afraid to say so. I suspect that most did not know what to do with their understanding. The people would not or could not by and large hear it and what vocation would they have if they stepped away.

Fortunately I have a wife who makes an adequate income and loves me. I had enough education so I could at least teach on the college level on a part time basis. Both of these have given me the opportunity to learn a little about real estate investing. I just don't have enough money to do much with it yet. Anyway, as long as children were still at home I convinced myself that I could not convert. So, I saw myself as a Green Beret. Perhaps I could reach people for Christ that the real Church couldn't and in the mean time teach what I knew to be the truth. It didn't work very well, not surprisingly. Yes, there were always a fervent group who heard and heeded but many left the churches I served to go to the real Church. The story is long and complicated so I'll leave that part for other times.

Also, there are classical Protestants who loudly proclaim that the religion that predominates in the US isn't Protestant at all but really just Deistic light. The ideas don't extend back to 1517 but only back to the Deists who hated all things Catholic and invented a religion that does not connect to truth at all or doesn't even try. Many even insist that Protestantism doesn't even exist any longer for as they say, Protestantism simply tried to correct a few errors of the Church which they insist aren't fully corrected yet. They are really better Catholics than Catholics are. When I suggest that since they are members of a "Catholic" Church that doesn't exist any longer why not join the one that really does exist they change the subject.

It's fear as much as anything that keeps them chained to a false religion. I'll just keep trying. From time to time some do convert but it is very slow going.

CDL

Ray --

I understand. For some reason, there is a parochialism in the Catholic Faith that puzzles me. If you truly believe that you have the Truth and that the people you care about are not going to enjoy a good eternity without that Truth, then why would you keep your mouth shut about it?

When I presented the evangelism plan to Fr. Mike, I didn't labor under any pretensions. I knew that I would be lucky (blessed -- hate the word "lucky") to find one other person so we could go out as a pair. We have been trying for some time to build up our Pro-Life Committee with announcements in the parish bulletin and they fall on deaf ears.

Fr. Mike often wondered why it is that the Evangelicals can build their assemblies so big. Well, like all cults, they tell their new converts right away that God expects them to share the "Good News" and they sort of hint at the idea that if you are not out "soul winning" (i.e., pestering people to death about whether they are "saved") then God is really disappointed in you. You are letting souls go to hell, you will answer at the Judgment Seat, etc etc etc. It is really quite forceful in some of their asssemblies.

The Catholic Faith, on the other hand, I think suffers from the fact that unlike America, whole communities are Catholic (or Orthodox) and no evangelism is really needed. The idea of going out and talking about Jesus to someone in order to get them into the Church would be a non sequiteur since in Eastern Europe....well, everyone is baptized into the Church and lives and dies in it, even if they do not go regularly.

But....with the advent of groups like the above coming into Europe and spreading their pestilent heresies, these people had better change their thinking or they are going to look around and find their parishes empty!!! They had better develop stratgies to teach the faithful all the tricks of the trade of these heretics and how to counter them.

Nothing personal taken.

Brother Ed

From my experience, dialogue hasn't been the "best" means for conversion. If I would like to see a family member or friend (re) enter the Church, I have found the most influential means has been prayer. I offer a decade of the Rosary for the person (as often as I can), and I trust GOD to make a change in their heart. When I can, I offer additional sacrifices for the conversion of a particular person.

I have found that my example, most often, speaks louder than my words. And I have found that a "dialogue" hasn't been the best means. Along with my prayer, I do have a current "tactic". In a non-religious conversation, I will simply state a Truth of the Faith (or even a quote by a saint). In stead of trying to explain the Truth, I state it bluntly. It tends to be one sentence. Most often, the sentence is responded to with silence. But, I know I just planted a seed, and I trust the Holy Spirit to work out the conversion. These seeds seem to germinate for years. I hope with my tears and prayers I can water the soil. This is a LONG process and takes perseverance.

So, I guess I am not much of an evangelist, but I believe my personal growth in holiness will make more changes than my preaching. Just because my mouth is mostly shut publicly doesn't mean I am not speaking to GOD on their behalf.

St. Francis of Assisi, �Preach always, and if necessary, use words�

Father Serge (yes I called a man Father, many fundamentalists say call no man father).
I couldn't agree more about the splitting of the family. I tried to address this on the town hall thread about this same topic.
Why not go to the Ukraine or Slovakia, etc.. and lend a helping hand to the Matthew 25 ministries that are already taking place. Many times these are now being done in joint co-operation with Greek Catholics and Orthodox. It is better to put the money and resources together and work alongside each other instead of creating division.
These are areas that have seen much loss and division in the last 100 years alone. I don't know if you can firmly grasp that notion. Just remember Stalin starved 32,000,000 Ukrainians, The USSR killed or relocated many of the Rusyns/Ukrainian in the Carpathian Mountains. People found themselves living in other lands to make ends meet (many of them moved where I live, leaving parents, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles.. behind never to see them again). Why, when it's a time of relative peace create division in the most awesome human image of God's love, the family?

I wonder if the lack of evangelism drive in C or O Churches is due to the fact we may not know where to begin? Like...do we get up and walk door to door? Where do we start?

I just think that there just need to have somebody who is motivated to start or coordinate something and get something rolling and then people would follow...

I, myself, don't even know where to begin but to pray. I don't know what the protestant churches are telling their people how to go out and evangelize. I'd like to know.

SPDundas,

Ask and you shall receive!

You might want to start with this website:
Josh Hunt [joshhunt.com]

Specifically, you might be interested in this page:
help the church double in the next 20 years [joshhunt.com]

Then you might want to visit:
Church Growth Institude [churchgrowth.org]

Basically, all of this is code speak for stealing fallen away Catholics and mainline Protestants to Evangelical Churches. If you look at their numbers that is where their growth is, and they now it. For example, the local Anti-Catholic Evangelical Radio statio is playing Spanish music mostly now. I wonder why?

Wow! Thanks, now I'm joining the Baptist Church! Their books convinced me now. Thanks, Ray!!!

But on the serious side...the Protestants are extremely appealing to Deaf people...because they provide accommodations (by having a Deaf pastors or hearing pastors that sign), having solid Deaf Ministry programs, etc.

The Catholic is coming along in this okay. Catholic Church can do BETTER. There's even an international Deaf Catholic organization (International Deaf Catholic Association and there are chapters all over this country and the world). There was a proposed Liturgy translation in American Sign Language but the Vatican rejected it (due to poor language translations, which I agree with the Vatican, needs to have better translation).

Anyway, there's NO place in the Orthodox Church at all, which I'm very disappointed. Even there's not enough sensitivity to have a Deaf people in the Church like saying that having an interpreter up front is too "distracting" to people that compromises the "integrity of the worship". EHHHH!! BLLLAHHH!! The Catholic Church viewed that way in the past...but no more. It's now the Orthodox's turn to change their attitudes.

I once remember meeting a Deaf teen (I was 21 at the time) at the World Youth Day in Denver in 1993, he was an Orthodox...he was telling me how frustrated he was in the Orthodox Church, that he was considering becoming Catholic because of better position in the Church and etc. I was glad that he'll at least be within the Apostolic Church. However, I felt at the time that he should embrace Orthodoxy and that the Orthodox Church can do better. I was sad for him.

MANY Deaf Catholics AND Orthodox leave their respective Churches to join mainline evanglical Churches, especially Baptist, even in spite of Catholic Church efforts to retain Deaf members, but like I said, still needs more work on that. VERY VERY SAD!!! It seems that hearing people in Catholic/Orthodox Churches shrug their shoulders as if they don't care to reach out to Deaf people and provide them with needs in order to help them to actually become PART of the Church, like being an "outcast" or the "neglected". The same goes for other disabled groups.

The Catholic Church FINALLY has a Deaf priest, Fr. Thomas Coughlin, he was ordained in the early '80s. That's good....but why did the Church take sooooooooo LONG to have a Deaf man ordained to priesthood (almost 1,980 years!)? The Protestants have done that for hundreds of years before that!!! Goodness Gracious!!!

I'm glad to see that the Deaf people CAN be the part of the life of the Catholic Church including the Liturgy (through active participation, becoming Deacons, priests, nuns, and brothers, etc.).

Thanks, again.

The last time I was at St John The Baptist Russian Orthodox Church (ROCOR)in Mayfield, Pa, they had an interpreter off to one side signing for the 2 hearing impaired members of the congregation. I remember this because one of the girls was quite cute, and was thrilled with my limited signing ability. I believe that Holy Cross Greek Orthodox Church (GOA) in Pittsburgh also has a hearing impaired pogrom.

Alexandr

Make that program, NOT pogrom! We reserve the pogroms for revisionists!

Alexandr

Cute girl? WHERE!?? heheh

That's great.

I'm still wanting to set up a "pan-Orthodox" deaf group.

Thank you for this post. My son who has many, many health issues is also as we just discovered has 55% hearing loss. We have struggled learning some signs to accomodate him in noisy rooms and he just got the hearing aids. Church was a real bear until we discovered right before his 5th birthday that he probably didn't hear much of it. Now that we understand and he has aids it is much better. But you are correct, I have never seen anyone sign through Mass, except on TV. Thank you for sharing your frustrations, I can empathize with you.

Holly

Spdundas

I can go you one better. In 1970 Fr Cyril Axelrod C.Ss.R., a convert from Judaism, became the first man born deaf and blind to be ordained a Roman Catholic priest. He has written a book on his life called And The Journey Begins and been the subject of documentaries.