www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Do you want to be healed?

You hit the nail on the head Lazareno. It is not about "knowing who we are" or "being comfortable in our own skin"---it is about Holy Tradition. Again, I will reiterate, inclusive language opens the door for all sorts of abominations. It is very difficult trying to resist the urge to vomit when I hear the Creed being mutated and the Liturgy being emasculated. Personally, I will continue to chant the word "men" in the Nicene Creed and my pastor refuses to eliminate the age old title for Christ as "Lover of Mankind".

I pray that there will be healing for me one day. I am still being called to the Orthodox Church because I cannot justify the revision. To me, the inclusive language is a compromise and a surrender to secular political correctness. My wife will never break communion with Rome and so we may find ourselves attending different Churches. My wife and child will be at the revised Ruthenian Catholic Church and I will be at the Orthodox Church. I wonder if the revisionists knew they would be tearing families apart as they scandalized people's consciences.

Yes. I pray for healing.

At the time, St. John Chrysostom and many other "fathers" were not universally accepted as they are now. Maybe our liturgical committee will be looked upon in 200 years as a group of saints?!?!

Why not consider the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church? Or the Maronite rite? There are other "manly" rites in the Catholic Church before jumping off the deep end.

Sure, alongside Mons. Annibale Bugnini in the Roman Church.

It is not about being "manly". I truly hope that was sarcasm on your part. Read my post called "inclusive language" which details how insulting inclusive language is to the women of our Church.

...and to answer your question...What would prevent Rome from promulgating untimely and questionable revisions for the other "rites"? I would consider the Melkite Church, but there is not one close to me.

The deep end?

Alexandr

This is one of the few and precious occassions in which Alexander and I share the same sentiments. I am not Orthodox, however, I certainly would not characterize moving to Holy Orthodoxy as "jumping of the deep end." If Recluse, after prayer and consulation with trusted spiritual advisors, believes God is calling him into Holy Orthodoxy, then that is where he needs to be.
In peace,
Ryan

I, along with Recluse, value the communion with Rome above all else. I would much rather see one jump off the deep end into Orthodoxy rather than jump off the cliff to Protestantism. One is correct however to worry about Rome having the authority to manipulate and discomboberate (sp?) any rite she chooses. If one is living in fear of Rome meddling with the traditions of various rites then one needs to find that spiritual rock to leash their boat to. If that rock is Orthodoxy then by all means goes east. Maybe having someone in the Orthodox church that values the Pope so much might help future bridge building between east and west. Maybe you are being called to join the Orthodox church. One question, if the Pope were to say that Orthodoxy is not legit, would you still consider it? If you said "no" to this then you need to remain a Catholic.

First of all, jumping off a cliff was equated with Protestantism. Secondly, I am well aware that the Catholic Church views the Orthodox Church as a sister church and is working diligently to restore union. That being said, I find a trend amongst those that are Catholic but yet are attracted to Orthodoxy. That trend is that they say that the Pope considers Orthodoxy a legitimate heir to the Apostolic church so they in turn accept Orthodoxy. Understand what I am saying? If one truly is Orthodox at heart I don't think the Popes views should matter much at all. If his views do legitimize your Orthodox inclination, then you are Catholic at heart by seeking the Pope's blessing to become Orthodox. So, please thoroughly read my post and I will gladly read Orientale Lumen.

OK, �jumping off the deep end� then. That�s wrong too.

You cannot legitimately consider someone who might break communion with the Catholic Church to formally become Orthodox to be �jumping off the deep end�. If you accept the Catholic Teaching that the �communion is so profound� then when you consider someone moving to Orthodoxy to have �jumped off the deep end� you must be doing so as a Catholic who already jumped off at the deep end. You can say it is wrong, that they are in less perfect communion with the Catholic Church. But you cannot say they are "jumping off the deep end."

Orthodoxy is a legitimate heir to the Apostolic Church.

I think that if one is truly Orthodox at heart one still feels the wound of the separation between East and West, and one prays that it finally be healed.

For those who see such great and grave differences I remind them of Pope Pius X�s directive to us: "Nec plus, nec minus, nec aliter" (no more, no less, no different). Our lived experience as Byzantine Catholics should be identical to the lived experience of the Orthodox. We should not add to it. We should not subtract from it. We should not be different from it. If they have already jumped off the deep end we are certainly commanded by numerous popes to be at their side.

Thank you for promising to read Orientale Lumen. You�ll find it very soothing way to cool your hatred for Orthodoxy.

PS: In case you didn�t pick up on it it�s not a matter of having an Orthodox inclination. It�s a matter of faithfulness to Holy Tradition as Catholics who embrace the Byzantine Tradition. We are called to be Orthodox Christians in communion with Peter.

I never considered one iota about what Rome or the Pope thinks is legit when I converted to the One Holy catholic and Apostolic Church,(also known as the ORTHODOX church.) The creed I sing is still said in it's original form, the same typicon is followed in all the parishes I've visited, and I've never felt better spiritually. I still pray for the BCC to get with it.

P.S. The last time a Roman bishop was vested like a Byzantine bishop had to be Bishop Fulton Sheen. Why does the Pope not don the vestments of the Byzantine rite occasionally to show the world that the Catholic church has more traditions than the Roman? Wouldn't that be a great display of unity in the Catholic church? Oh sorry, lets keep the East a secret and let the Latin world discover it on their own.

Christos Posredi Nas!

Amen!
As a Byzantine Catholic, my patrimony is the Orthodox Church. And when I see our Church not living up to that Tradition, and in fact, going backward (or should I say horizontal) with a neutered Liturgy, I scratch my head and say to myself, " Hmmm, how can I worship in an authentically Eastern fashion"? I keep asking myself this question, and the answer keeps coming back-----Holy Orthodoxy!!! If our Church had used the million dollars to make sure every parish had a beautiful Iconostasis, purchased more Icons, perhaps put domes on some Churches, add vesper services, etc., etc.,----I would be ecstatic right now. But no, in what seems like a spirit of egotism, our Church decided to revise and neuter the Liturgy while changing the music----music people had come to live and breathe. I could go into denial and attempt to ignore everything while staying happily in union with Rome, but my conscience will not allow it. This is no small decision. I will be attending a different Church than my wife and child while attempting one day to explain to my baby why daddy does not go to Church with her and mommy! This tears my soul apart and fills me with an anger toward those responsible for this secret revision and promulgation. And anger is not a good thing--it compounds my problems. I am to the point where I no longer feel that I can receive the Eucharist because of my anger during the Liturgy.

So to you Theo, it is not simply about jumping off the proverbial "deep end". It is about being able to worship in an authentic Eastern Tradition with peace of mind and spirit.

May God bless you all!

Recluse

At great personal risk :), I am going to offer my opinion!

As one who has recently seen the need to embrace the fullness of the Church's existential expression in the modern world by entering into communion with the Roman Church and by recognizing the legitimate primacy of the Pope of Rome, I rejoice in being able to embrace both lungs of the Body of Christ without having to argue that one is better than the other. So while I am most comfortable breathing with eastern lungs, I recognize, rejoice and embrace those who are more comfortable breathing with western lungs.

Furthermore, since I recognize that in my own physical body that I work best when I breathe with both lungs working together -- I believe the same is true of the Church.

Not everything in the West is evil or rotten or ... The West has beautiful traditions that have nourished an active piety, etc. I agree that we should follow the Popes' guidance and strive to keep our eastern traditions, but I do not believe that this means we cannot appreciate the beauty and spiritual depths of the western traditions.

To be honest, as a person born and raised in the West, I am SO THANKFUL that I can now embrace western traditions without feeling that I am being unfaithful to my Orthodox beliefs. This is the first year I did not feel a pinge of guilt singing western Christmas carols in my home with my children. I know that "Silent Night ..." is not in our eastern tradition, but it is a beautiful hymn and it resonates with me precisely because I was raised singing it, etc.

I think we have to stop being afraid of "things western". We should rejoice as Eastern Catholics that we can be fully Eastern/Orthodox without having to reject the West. In my mind, it is truly the best of both worlds.

OK -- now ... let the stones begin to fly!