www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Why the revised Liturgy is so hard for families with children.

Contrary to the "what about the children" red-herring that is used just about everywhere, children are highly adaptable, smart and can change. We as adults should admire and take on some of those qualities we have forgotten. At least the liturgy isn't still entirely in Slavonic where no one understood it! Not putting down slavonic but I know people who attend two parishes their whole life and neither used English. They feel pretty left out being fully grown and never having understood what was being said in the liturgy. Before I get the response "the text is in english as well in the prayer book" Reading during church takes away from the communal celebration, people shouldn't be have their noses stuck in the liturgy the whole time and missingout on the community prayer.

Yes, they can adapt. They can adapt to drugs, and gangs, and who knows what! That is why we have to guide them and direct them, and when they are very young, be careful about what dangers we expose them to.

This revision is a mistake, and inclusive language is just wrong. The bishops should have thought of them, before they took our Church down this road to ruin.

Sometimes I think my Church has a death wish!

Don't you notice how the evangelism threads have gone silent! Don't you see how all those who were enthusiastic about spreading the good news of our Church, and celebrating our tradition have been frustrated? The very people, who were enthusiastic about restoring our tradition, have been so disillusioned by this fight from yesterday. This kind of agenda, pushed in this new Liturgy, is so 1960's it is laughable.

So, it is about the young people! The young adults aren't asking for this, the youth aren't demanding this, and the children should be protected from this.

It is the arrogance of a lost generation, that have done nothing for our Church. They had the 60s and the 70s and the 80s to wreck our Church. Did their theories fill the Churches, how many missions did they build, how many schools did they open, how many vocations did they inspire? Their verdict has already been given.

Yet, this Revised, exclusive, hopelessly written Liturgy comes out of the '60s like the last gasp of a dying dragon! How sad, what a shame!

Look at what we have spent. Look at the burden we have placed on our next generation! It betrays the failed theories, and poor vision of a lost generation.

It is such a burden on the young, that I am not sure they will rise past it. It may bury them.

Where are the young who will study our tradition, and restore the Ruthenian recension, when we have deprived them of it, just when they needed it? How can they grow to love, what they will never see? What a catastrophe.

Orthodox Pyrohy, you show the same arrogance we've heard from the committee for the Revision. Shut up, it is better, and you'll see. Shut up, obey, we know best, what is good for you.

Don't you see what is most distressing?

If the conservative lovers of the Ruthenian tradition had been appointed to the committee, and had tried to impose the whole recension with the kind of draconian and authoritarianism shown by the committee and Bishop Schott, you would have been the first to cry out in outrage, and demand peoples 'rights' to dissent. Liberals (such as those behind the feminist language, and 'improved' liturgy) and you would have been the first to point out how cruel and heartless it is, and how unfeeling we were to impose our vision of the Church on others!

But, now you have won the day, and Bishop Schott has promulgated the revision of the Liturgy, and taken our Church out of the Ruthenian recension. Please, don't gloat, and tell me I'm better off. It just isn't true.

Nick

Amen, brother!

Nick, Nikolai, I never NEVER mentioned that I agreed with the improper translation of anthropos. I remember one day I was picking up the little one from summer camp. Somehow the word salesman came up while I was talking with one of the camp counselors. One of the little kids said, it's salesperson, she's a woman. I said no, no, it is salesman, that is proper English.
The counselor girl, an English major seeking to be an English teacher agreed. We need to take our language back and it seems in some places we are.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

"It is such a burden on the young, that I am not sure they will rise past it. It may bury them".

I concur. Growing in a society wherein nothing and no-one are stable, the young need to be able to perceive the Church as firm. Without that foundation, who knows whither they might drift?

Honestly, 'tis the institution that matters as much as that which is revised. If His Eminence had revised the Divine Liturgy bits at a time, it would be less of a sledgehammer. By mandating every change all at once, he puts people, pastors, and bishops in very uncomfortable positions.

-Uspenije

I have no problem being counted as part of mankind. However, if I were still selling Fuller Brush door-to-door as I did back in high school, I would definitely have a problem being called a "salesman." And what about all the Avon Ladies and those who sell MaryKay -- are they "salesmen," too? Get real!

When was the last time YOU posted on any of the Evangelism threads? Do you need to get your way with the liturgy before you can think about evangelizing again?

Sophia asks:


Not in my case. I doubt that I have much to contribute to the Evangelism threads. But I'm safely in Ireland, where the Novus Ordo Byzantini Ritus is not found, so it doesn't affect me personally or my parishioners (most of whom are unaware of the existence of this bizarre hybrid).


However, I would sympathize with anyone who considers it overwhelmingly difficult to evangelize with this liturgical problem hanging overhead. The Eucharist is the goal of everything the Church does, and the Source from which her strength flows. If the celebration of the Eucharist is out of order, no one need be surprised that other activities become much more difficult.

Or to put it more succinctly: it is impossible to breathe out if one never breathes in.

Fr. Serge

I searched for the sources and I can't find them online. spdundas asked

"Can you show me where it shows that Fr. Taft is advocating inclusive language?"

and I quoted a source that at least attributes some comments to him on the topic. Were the comments in the Touchstone attributed to Fr. Taft accurate? Are the sources you're speaking of online somewhere that could be quoted from?

I'm curious as to what the answer is myself.

How do I "get real?" We all know the Avon persons are "Cosmetic engineer distributors" and in effect most folks I know that do sales are "account executives" or reprsentatives. Sounds better and doesn't invoke the scary thought of the fuller brush guy knocking at the front door.

I emailed the author (William Tighe) of the article, "East Meets English" yesterday and he called me last night. He was absolutely confident that his reporting was accurate, although he says he no longer has the tapes or the transcripts. He believes that some of the remarks made by Fr. Taft came in the question and answer period after his lecture.

Thank you for the additional information lm.

I need to correct something else. My cousin saw my post which began this thread and told me I am 50% Rusyn and 50% slovak. My grandpap (father of 14), who died many years ago, worked in the steal mill until he was 75 and lived until he was 93. He read and wrote in Cyrillic and had a Cyrillic Bible which he used. He also spoke English. Something tells me he would not recognize the new liturgy or the Creed which leads to a very practical test which should have been used: "What would grandpap do?" WWGD?

As I wrote previously:

Unfortunately the Touchstone account of that Symposium is not reliable. The papers have been published Logos and so is a cassette - recording of Father Taft's keynote address.

Fr. Serge

I am not imputing malice to anyone. So far as I am aware, neither Logos itself nor the proceedings of that symposium are available on-line.

Fr. Serge