www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Do you want to be healed?

Dear Father,

I am making a small concession to break my self imposed Lenten silence on forums other than Prayer, in order to respond to your post.

First of all, I would be very disappointed if stones begin to fly because of your opinions, your feelings, and the spiritual path Christ brought you to in order to grow in Theosis. I would especially be disappointed because this is Lent.

Secondly, I must respond to your paragraph about Christmas carols.


In all fairness, this has never been my experience in the Greek Orthodox Church. Every single parish I have belonged to for the past forty years has joyfully sung all the Western Christmas carols with full abandon at our Christmas liturgies, pageants, services, and even in our youth groups, and we have sung them with every confidence that these beautiful carols are just as much our own as Americans as they are to Roman Catholics and Protestants. I would, indeed, be dismayed and disoriented if my jurisdiction did not feel this way!!!

In Christ,
Alice

Being raised as a "Roman Catholic", I can appreciate what you are saying. But as Eastern Catholics, can we truly be "fully Eastern/Orthodox"?

How do you feel about the Filioque?
How do you feel about the newer doctrines of Papal infallibility, immaculate conception, and purgatory?
How do do you feel about the newly introduced inclusive language in the Byzantine Catholic Church?

The teacher in me can't help but respond to your questions by saying that I don't "feel" anything about them. Of course, I do have "thoughts" and would be most happy to share them with you. (Funny, how in our modern culture we have substituted the language of emotion for rational thought. "How do you feel" in modern parlance is "How do you think".)

1) I do not believe that the filioque is heresy -- the East and West were talking about different issues, etc. See Bishop Kallistos Ware for a good discussion of this. I also have no problem with the Roman Church adding it. I find the argument about Church Councils having the sole authority to change the Creed to be a bit ... a-historical (perhaps even unhistorical).

2) Understood in an eastern context, I have no problem with these doctrines. I also do not believe that these are "heretical" and thus worthy of breaking communion even when they are understood in a western context. Obviously, the east's theological approach understands them differently, but the differences do not touch either our doctrine of the Trinity or the doctrine of the Incarnation. I believe that there is value to multiple perspectives within the larger corpus of revealed truth.

3) I reject the terms that you used because I do not beleive these changes are part of a feminist strategy to undermine the doctrines of the Church, etc. But in terms of the new translation, I have already written extensively of my approval! I love it! Of course, you have to remember that I had been using horizontally inclusive language in an Orthodox contexts for years, so to me there has been no change. I did not recite the word "men" when I sung the Creed in my Orthodox Church for at least 4-5 years.

Thanks!

Alice,

That was not my experience. I was told on several occasions by hierarchs that western hymns and carols could not be sung and that they were inappropriate for Orthodox Christians to use.

Thanks!

That would certainly be odd if the hierarchs were Antiochian, since they have a Western Rite which I know the bishops are very supportive of (particularly Bishop Basil). I have never heard that sort of anti Westernism in OCA churches and my parish (not OCA) sings Silent Night after the Nativity Vespers.

I did know one convert priest who did believe western carols were bad, shouldn't be sung, etc. That was part of a general pattern of attempting to distance himself from his past though.

Ouch!

Thanks for your "thoughts".

You altered how the creed is recited on your own while an Orthodox priest? Am I reading this correctly?

No, as a very pan-Orthodox community, we used a SCOBA approved liturgy. I believe it was the translation that came out of Holy Cross but I can't remember exactly where it originated. We just sang the texts as they were given to us. Of course, when it comes to the Menaion, Triodion and Pentecostarion services, we used whatever texts were available. Sometimes these used horizontal language, sometimes they did not. I know that most of the texts that originate in England tend to use a more inclusive language. Because these texts are pretty good in terms of being close to the original, we tended to use these.

This was a text given to you by your bishop? I'm only aware of two officially approved English translations in use in the OCA for parishes and both say "for us men, etc."

The common SCOBA translation was in my understanding adopted by nobody, as everybody objected to it. The creed approved and use in the GOA says "for us men".

I would very much like to see a link to the text in question.

The SCOBA project now seems to be dead, a circumstance at which the righteous may rejoice.

Read all about it here! http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=09-04-002-e

This is an interesting article... So in 1996, the Greek Archdiocese had been using a translation with "For us and for our salvation" for ten years? That would explain why the Archdiocesan web site had had that phrase in the Creed for some time. I don't "for us and for our salvation", but it becomes harder and harder for me to hold that "the Orthodox never use that phrase."

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

Read Liturgiam Authenticam.

Rome has said no to the type of inclusive language in the Revised Liturgy.

You should not reject Rome's teaching.

Our bishops are wrong and should correct their mistakes.

It also says that terms that signify both the individual and collective should maintain that feature - which is why some had objecting to translating celovikolubce as "lover of mankind". I assume you hold that Liturgiam Authentican can be ignored in that one case out of necessity?

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

This is "The Official Translation of the Confession of Faith adopted by the Holy Eparchial Synod of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America":

http://www.goarch.org/en/chapel/liturgical_texts/creed.asp

The Nicene Creed

I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages.

Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten not created, of one essence with the Father through Whom all things were made.

Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.

He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried.

And He rose on the third day, according to the Scriptures.

He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

And He will come again with glory to judge the living and dead. His kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets.

In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the age to come. Amen.

--
I was in a GOA parish recently and this was exactly how the creed was recited. The Touchstone article did a good job of explaining why the SCOBA translation was rejected by everyone.

So perhaps there is hope that the Ruthenian Catholic Church will correct the mistake in less than ten years? Wait a minute---why did we mimic the error in the first place?