www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology St Gregory Palamas

I attended both the Melkite Divine Liturgy, where we commemorated St. Gregory Palamas, and a Latin Catholic Mass, where we read the story of the Transfiguration of Christ. It didn't strike me until reading this thread just how fitting this was.

Peace and God bless!

We commerorated St. Gregory at our Divine Liturgy yesterday, in our Ruthenian Church, and he remembered on the cover of the church bulletin.

Even better yet, our priest gave a wonderful sermon about St. Gregory, and his concept of theosis, tying it to early fathers such as Maximos the Confessor.

Very pleased with our new priest, I have to say!

I received Eastern Catholic Life, the official publication of the Passaic eparchy yesterday in the mail. From the back page, Typikon: The order of divine services according to the Byzantine Tradition, arranged by Archpriest David M. Petras, SEOD, the entry for Sunday, March 4 Second Sunday of the Great Fast. Our Venerable Father Gerasimus of the Jordan. The entry reads:
"Resurrection Tone 6. The Divine Liturgy of St. Basil is celebrated. Epistle Hebrews 1:10-2:3; Gospel Mark 2:1-12. Ambon prayer: "O God and Father of glory, for our sake You gave us..." Two Presanctified Liturgies are prescribed for this week. Some Triodions prescribe the Feast of St. Gregory Palamas to be observed this Sunday."

Ung, Are you being facetious here? I got the bulletin from last week yesterday when I went to church, and it had the paralytic on the cover, though it had "The Second Sunday of Lent - St. Gregory Palamas" at the top of the front page. I believe that we use the Eastern Christian Bulletin Service as well. Were there 2 different versions printed for March 4??? John K

This issue wasn't settled last year, so I decided to ask about it again this year.

I looked at the RDL hymnal and the following Sundays are named thusly:

Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee (p. 215)

Sunday of the Prodigal Son (p. 216)

Sunday of Meat-Fare - Second Coming of Jesus Christ as Judge (p. 217)

Sunday of Cheese-Fare - Expulsion of Adam and Eve (p. 218)

First Sunday of the Great Fast - Sunday of Orthodoxy (p. 220)

Second Sunday of the Great Fast (p. 222)

Third Sunday of the Great Fast - Veneration of the Cross (p. 223)

Fourth Sunday of the Great Fast - Father John Climacus (p. 226)

Fifth Sunday of the Great Fast - Mary of Egypt (p. 230)

Palm Sunday (p. 235)

All the Sundays have a title of dedication except for the Second Sunday of the Great Fast, which is traditionally dedicated to Saint Gregory Palamas, a great doctor of the church and Byzantine theologian. But the RDL hymnal is mute. For all the Typicons(?), church calendars, and bulletins mentioning this great teacher of the church, he has failed to make entry into the RDL hymnal.

This is not an RDL question or meant to be an RDL forum topic. My question has to do with Saint Gregory Palamas's place in the Byzantine Catholic Church today. For all his publicity, why was he omitted? Is there an official blacklist that includes this particular saint; the same one that includes Saint Photius the Great?

There is evidence above that suggests that the people in this church welcome Saint Gregory. His name is everywhere - even church bulletins! Will the people's love for him and there acceptance be officially recognized by their chief shepherds? That the Second Sunday for BCC's is left empty says a lot.

Ed

Why is this such a hobby horse issue for you Ed?

Your aunt's parish commemorates him. Ours does... SGP is recognized in Catholic circles as a saint.

What more do you want? What are you setting out to prove? How will a republishing of everything with SGP make you happier?

Revisiting this over and over, I just don't get it. What answers will satisfy you and leave you feeling your point and concerns about your dear aunt's church have been addressed or redressed sufficiently?

As I tell my aunt, the Byzantine Catholic Church is NOT fully Byzantine as they claim. It is a hybrid church, confused, and with a lack of identity. One day, Catholic; next day, Orthodox. St. Gregory is in, is out, is in, is out, on the calendar, off, on, off, on ... It is not my hobby horse if your church ignores its own people and doesn't care if they stop singing they way they have since coming to America. It is not my hobby horse if there is a built-in confusion, whether it be theology, ministry or the understanding of Scripture. Your hymnal leaves this Sunday blank. Have you known the Byzantine Church to leave ANY day blank? The BCC has nothing to say about one of the greatest saints theologians in its own official hymnal. What *Catholic circles* is SGP recognized as a saint? Certainly not your shepherds; and this is where it really counts. If I revisit it; if my aunt revisits it; if any other BC visits it; it is because it is not visited by those who matter the most. I detect an embarassment, not a defense of orthodoxy. The people, the clergy, and the monastics are not on the same page as their shepherds. Last week was the first time my aunt's church did not have a procession with icons (a favorite custom of theirs). She doesn't knowh why. Something about it being the Sunday of Orthodoxy (the *O* word). The word *Orthodox(y)* was not used at all. No one brought icons either. They remembered the Sunday of Images without images! I ask to see if there are answers, but cannot makes sense and have nothing to off my dear aunt as an explanation. Their singing was taken from them and a different style was enforced and everyone is mum. When they approach the priest about it, he runs away. People are beginning to feel guilty of being Byzantine Christian.

Ed

I envy you Ed.

I really do.

See, not only am I a bona fide Greek Catholic who is not as certain of these broad-stroke painted accusations and pontifications that you present based on the genuinely close relationship you must enjoy with your dear aunt, I am not anywhere near so lucky as to be so very close to my own dear aunt who serves as my godmother.

I don't know if I am too easy too please, because I am too grateful to have returned to the practice of the faith after years of absense in utter and despondant hedonism and indifference. Maybe I return so hungry that the sub-par cooking of the meal simply doesn't bother me. Someone as spiritually starved as I would have, to mix a metaphor, eaten sandwhiches with moldy bread and been pleased to have them.

But inasmuch as my parish enjoys the leadership of a priest humbly focused on God, an enthusiastic deacon, one or two deacon candidates, several cantors - some born GC, others converts, and a small but stable congregation that seems to achieve a level of prayer weekly and keeps coming back... Well inasmuch as I see all this some of the vitriol associated with the RDL & on outsiders observations about our liturgical praxis is cause for much head-scratching on my part. What am I missing that hasn't caused me to suffer so?

Again I am humbled by your situation. Again, not only are you far, far, far closer to your aunt than I am to any of mine (I am not confident that I actually know any of their middle names!)... But she sounds like an amazingly insightful woman who is able to knowingly analyze our great and forboding problems and then communicate them to a nephew (who is not a Greek Catholic) far better than this simple sinner who has attended our seminary and discussed our situation on and off the record with his classmates who serve as priests throughout the metropolia for hours on end.

(I must confess that my own aunt who is also my godmother has expressed dissatisfaction that 25+ years of being the parish gradeschool secratary has left her at times slightly resentful of her compensation in light of some added responsibilities coupled with knowledge of increased parish revenue. Still...)

Really, for that closeness you have achieved and her insightfulness that you pass on (you must take notes!) I am almost jealous. It is an odd sort of consolation to me that I am not actually jealous, because she sounds - to hear you tell it, and from your observations - terribly unhappy and without hope.

Where I am and in my parish, I simply don't suffer that outlook.

So when you come here as an outsider, time and time and time again, relying on the data you have meticulously collected from your aunt (I don't know mine's middle name, you seem to know all the metropolia-wide zeitgeist of your aunt's church. I do remember my aunt's confirmation name for some reason: Agnes)... Well for having that link that has allowed you to pontificate on our church such things as:


You garnered that from talking with your aunt?


Again, second hand from her, you have a full understanding of what is going on with our calendar, our psyche, our self understanding...


Where do you get this? In the parish I came of age in I don't think I ever saw a dye in the wool Greek Catholic pick up a pew book, bring their own missal, or actually even look at any books. The moveable parts were in the bulletin, the cantors handled them masterfully. Your reading into the metropolia-wide cultural and psychological significans of the pew books - which in our parish even with the RDL collect dust till a visitor wipes it off - is odd and disconnected to the reality I am so many of us have known.


Even a little archival searching (admittedly sometimes a challenge with this forum program) is going to reveal how this has been a non-issue since I think 1971 when Rome approved the Melkite commemorations. Orthodox-Catholic has provided background for which of the UGCC bishops lead the way in restoring commemoration. This has been covered. And covered again. And covered some more.


So you, or she in turn reporting to you, should ask. The knowing inferences you draw don't seem nearly as obvious to some of us. She doesn't know why? You don't know why? Get in your car, get on the phone, shoot off an email and ask. The embarassment you detect, I just can't for the life of me see.



We used the "O" word in my parish. Just curious, what do you think it means in that context? Have you called your aunt's pastor to ask about this?


What can be said about this? You present as fact what you have heard second or third hand and then pontificate and opine on it, what can we say? It is a classical unanswerable question/assertion.


Not me, Ed. Not me.

I am hesitant to write this and post it if for no other reason than it is time consuming and the last time we went round for round on these and similar matters related to your opinions on what has been told you by your aunt in an undisclosed location with an undisclosed priest lead to me being publicly rebuked by a moderator who assured me he had received numerous complaints that I was "shouting down" (???) parties on ByzCath when during that time the bulk of my postings were (long) responses to your pontifications.

I am damned if I do, damned if I don't. I can leave unchallenged your damning allegations from second had sources (as you report it) and just smile... or I can spend too much time trying to respond.

The reason this strikes me, and the folks who send me private messages, as a hobby horse is that you seem to avail yourself of opportunities to be so very critical of us as a group. A group to which you do not belong and (to hear you tell it) get your info from a relative.

(One of my private interlocutors puts it well:)


So Ed, maybe spend a year or two worshipping with us, attending events, meeting more of us, moving around a bit more.

Otherwise it is really hard in good faith to not see a lot of the stuff you write in the fashion that you write it as a provocation and hobby horse.

The constant leit motivs of putting us down as embarassed, confused, and not "Byzantine enough", (By Ed Hash's standards???)reading into your assesment of SGP's position in our liturgical life, it is all very tiring and sad.

Again, I celebrate your closeness with your aunt. I have never been so close to mine that I would feel comfortable garnering from her all that is wrong with her church and then coming online to a forum to share my understanding of their error.

Bless you and your aunt.

Forgive me for using the "O" word but I am Orthodox and have never ever heard of a confirmation name.

Although I am not thrilled with the revised liturgy, the following links from the Metropolitan Cantor Institute do show that St. Gregory Palamas is to be commemorated in the Ruthenian Church:

Ruthenian Liturgical Calendar for the Year of Grace 2008 (see 17 February) [metropolitancantorinstitute.org]

Vesper Propers: Second Sunday of th...ther Gregory, Archbishop of Thessalonica [metropolitancantorinstitute.org]

The "O" word is a non-issue for me, because as a Ruthenian Catholic I hold that I am an Orthodox Christian, and whether other Eastern Catholics accept this fact or not is irrelevant to me.

Thanks. Good to hear that.
But speaking as an Orthodox Christian, Iwant to say that my church does not have confirmation names, so I have never heard of them until reading it here.

You have not heard of the practice because taking a confirmation name is a Roman tradition.

Baptism and chrismation are conferred together in the Eastern tradition, while they are separated by many years in the Roman Church.

Well that is what the worlds 1.1B Latins frequently adopt when they are confirmed. Not being a purebred Greek Catholic, my mother's sisters happen to be of French Canadian stock - Latin French Canadians at that. That being the case, they got confirmation names when confirmed.

Simple Sinner,

You obviously have taken me to be simply a conduit for a frustrated Byzantine Catholic aunt. The Byzantine Catholics in my family only make up 1/8 of my family tree, and most of them have become either Roman Catholics or Protestant. My aunt is one of the few remaining Eastern Catholics.

Not all my information about the churches is from my aunt. I can read and often do. I can draw my own conclusions by comparing and contrasting them with other congregations or denominations. I have a religious education and have studied church history often.

I did receive a box of hymnals from my family. I do open and read through them simply to achnowledge what I received as a gift. But none of them are official today, and they serve only as historical documents. I compare them to the RDL hymnal that is on-line which everyone on the byzcath forums have been debating (have you failed to notice?) and end up with questions. The Administrator has provided a public forum for the exchange of ideas, debate, and posting questions on the topic of the RDL alone! I have often posted topics and links to other websites concerning the Byzantine Orthodox Christianity that I found interesting. If my aunt was all who there was to talk to about your church then I would have no reason to post here.

Questions can be considered *accusations* when there are those who prefer not to answer them. You are more concerned about alleged accusations than the point at hand. Is it really an *accusation* to question why your current hymnal is too shy to mention Saint Gregory Palamas like Saint Mary of Egypt? This is a question. Since last year, I have read more about him and looked into his teachings. He is a wonderful, blessed saint; a spiritual asset in the world of Byzantine Christianity. Yet, his name is not given in the RDL hymnal. There is something else going on here when a church fails to recognize one of their own most popular saints in their missal. It would be like taking a class in Scholastic theology and never mentioning Saint Thomas Aquinas! Everyone has stated that he IS remembered on the Second Sunday of the Great Fast, but is not in the RDL hymnal. I wouldn't say that everyone is lying about remembering this great man (if he is on their church bulletins, calendars). That you consider my questions as accusations and then personally question my relationship with my aunt, however close it is, borders on ad hominem logic, not an answer to a question.

My aunt is and will always remain in your church despite the fact that all her children and grandchildren have gone elsewhere for religion. Why they have left has given her, I believe, much fodder to fuel reflection.

I believe that youns have a wonderful form of Christianity at your disposal, but only need to make full use of it. Being a copy-cat of contemporary churches will not do the trick. I have received a number of messages from disgruntled Byzantine Catholics contemplating leaving your church. I have talked them out of it. I told them that this is not how you solve problems. Some feel that asking questions is taken by others as accusations. There is an old saying that an un-examined life is not worth living. But sometimes an examined one, one filled with questions, is one that only gets one in trouble or gets one blacklisted; hence the reason for justifying the philosophy of "Pray, pay, and obey."

Ed