www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News "Church, State and the Proselytism Controversy in Russia"

Orthodox Catholic,

>Do we know to what extent the Russians actually >do appreciate the Roman CAtholic Church as a >western phenomenon, something new and "hip" and >therefore something that should be tried by those >who are willing?

Short of doing an exhaustive survey of Russians who convert to Catholicism I don't think this question is answerable. Judging from how the Eastern Catholic & Indult Latin parishes are growing (faster than Novus Ordo??), I would say Novus Ordo wouldn't be that well received but that's just my opinion... and not really the issue at hand anyway.

>Comments from Orthodox during the papal visit >to Ukraine included reflections on the Pope's >amiability, holiness etc.

The Pope is a charismatic figure. I question how well someone in a crowd who sees the Pope for only an hour or so could really get a good assessment of his level of holiness while only hearing a well prepared speech. I am not saying he ISN'T holy -- I'm just saying I don't think the people you mentioned are really able to determine that. BTW, charismatic people tend to have this effect on people whether they are holy or not -- Bill Clinton comes to mind as an example. Note - I am ONLY comparing JP2 to Clinton by saying they are both charismatic. I am *not* questioning the Pope's moral character... as I would question that of our prior President.

>that Orthodox felt were >absent in their >own leaders.

Orthodox Catholic, I am unwilling to believe this part without some evidence. Where ever the Pope goes he is frequently reported to make a favorable impression on people, but I have never heard the press report people as saying "AND our own leaders aren't that way" -- I believe someone has told you this but it's not accurate. If you are correct about this then I would point to the fact that he visited an area of Russia where there is a lot of strife right now. I could give any number of examples of [isolated, localized] instances in the Catholic church where any Orthodox prelate who was reasonably holy would look good.

[ 08-21-2002: Message edited by: Eric ]

Dear Eric,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Pope never visited an area of Russia. What area are you talking about?
Lauro

Dear Eric,

Please call me "Alex!" And please don't get your Orthodox back up against the wall - I'm not out to convert you (would you be interested though? ).

Yes, I don't understand how this Pope can have the kind of hold he has on people, even non-Catholics and agnostics.

I know that my uncle, an agnostic of Jewish background, watched some of the World Youth Day celebrations.

He has opposed religion most of his life. But after two hours of watching the "Yoots" and "Il Papa" he was and still is a changed man. He called me today that he wants me to get him a Psalter so he can start reading it and see "what it's all about."

Don't tell me this Pope doesn't have a positive impact on people. He does and it's not the pseudo-charisma of Bill Clinton (that was a nasty choice for comparison, Big Guy, but I forgive you).

The Pope EXUDES sincere faith and holiness and speaks the message of hope.

"Prepared speeches?" Have you worked for politicians as a speech-writer? I have - for 17 years. Suffice it to say that I know, because I personally spoke with the Pope's speech-writers, that he himself dictates the contents of his speeches. His English grammar and punctuation are sometimes off, but hey, he's from the Old Country, Man!

This city of Toronto was transformed with his presence here. I prayed with the thousands who were here.

I can also share that speaking with him and touching him and looking into his eyes is a most sacramental experience.

That experience moved me to tears and its power is still with me. I've asked God to let it be with me always.

The power of the Presence of Christ, present in His priests and bishops and saints, can be communicated in a second, never mind hours.

The Good Thief on the Cross felt it. The people in Toronto felt it.

I daresay many Christians and non-Christians in Ukraine felt it, Orthodox, CAtholic or what have you.

Alex

Lauro,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Pope never visited an area of Russia. What area are you talking about?

No, you aren't wrong. I'm old enough to remember the USSR which was in common speech called "Russia". I actually meant to say "Ukraine" which is what I thought Alex was talking about when he said that the people (in "Russia"/Ukraine?) like the Pope, etc.

It will take me a lifetime to quit calling all those slavic states "Russia"!

Dear Eric,

The reports I read also interview people in Moscow as well as in Kyiv which is why I used the hyphenated term "Ukraine/Russia."

What you said about a lifetime needed to stop calling Ukraine "Russia" is exactly one reason why people like my uncle the former Russian Orthodox priest JUMPED from that Church to the Ukrainian Catholic Church when they got the first opportunity.

For them and many like them, "Orthodoxy" recalls the old Russian/Soviet imperialistic state.

That is not to say Eastern Catholics can't be nasty to Orthodox.

Only that there is a reason why they are - although that doesn't excuse either them or the Russians in 1946.

Alex

Lauro, the priest who married my wife and I in Volgograd (you know, used to be Stalingrad, ugh), Russia in Nov 2000 was a Polish RC priest who speaks fair Russian and uses it exclusively in church. -Slavyanskiy

It certainly is a unique situation in the ROC MP with Alexis,as it's Patriarch. He isn't even an "ethnic" Great Russian, as is the case with a lot of the MP parishioners (isn't Alexis Estonian by birth?). I believe that in the areas of the Russian Republic where there had been allowed the establishment of Roman Catholic parishes for non-ethnic Great Russians (Poles, Lithuanians,etc.) under Czarist times, the RCC has a right to re-establish her churches there that were liquidated during communism. I don't, however, think the RCC has a right to "proselytize" in Orthodox areas of the Russian Republic. That is as bad as the current establishment of RC churches in parts of Ukraine where the people had always been Eastern Christians. They only people in these RC churches in Ukraine should only be those citizens who are decendants of the Polish and Lithuanian minorities. In these so-called Roman Catholic parishes in Ukraine, they use the Ukrainian language in order to "proselytize" people of ethnic Ukrainian, Rusyn and Great Russian backround. This definitely shouldn't be done as it is not in the spirit of true ecumenism. A Byzantine Catholic priest in the Pittsburgh Metropolia (he himself a convert to Eastern Catholicism) said that the Greek Catholic Church in Transcarpathia as well as in Ukraine proper are losing young people to this newly-established "Ukrainian" Roman Catholic Church because they use the modern literary Ukrainian language, where as in most of the Greek Catholic Churches, Old Church Slavonic is still heavily used and these "young" Greek Catholics don't understand OCS. This is just plain wrong and should be stopped!!

Ung-Certez

Ung-Certez,

Of course the Greek Catholic Churches could stop using OCS heavily and start using modern Rusyn and Ukrainian, what an idea.

In Christ,
Lance

[ 08-30-2002: Message edited by: Lance ]

The point being made is that if the RCC has a right to exist in Ukraine, it shouldn't proselytize young people who are Eastern Christians, it isn't ecumenical. If it wants to be legitimate, than it should use the Latin, Polish or Lithuanian langauage and not Ukrainian!

Ung-Certez

The Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in Ukraine celebrates the liturgy in modern Ukrainian. I have a recording of the Divine Liturgy celebrated by Patriarch Lubomyr in St. George's Cathedral, Lviv--and it is very definitely in Ukrainian. I have no idea what they're using in the Dioceses of Uzherod or Mukachevo, but there is no longer any legal impediment to keep them from using Rusyn.

Again, the point being made is not the right of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church to be using the vernacular literary Ukrainian language, the point is there shouldn't be a RCC using the Ukrainian language to proselytize young and confused Ukrainian Greek Catholics. "Soul stealing" by any other name is still stealing and not ecumenism!

Ung-Certez

Ung-Certez,

I agree that the LAtin Church shouldn't be seeking converts from the Orthodox of Greek Catholics, however, using the national language for the Liturgy is not proselytization. The Poles and Lithuanians have been in Ukraine for awhile now and it is porbable they speak Ukrainian and not Polish or Lithuanian even though they maintain that ethnic designation. The Polish Orthodox Church which is made up of Lemko Rusyns and Ukrainians use Polish for their Liturgy for the same reason, it is what the people speak.

In Christ,
Lance

No, the Orthodox Rusyns in Lemkovyna used Old Church Slavonic and not Polish!

Ung-Certez

Why? The border between Ukraine and Poland has been fluid for generations, and there are Poles in the western part of Ukraine who speak Ukrainian, not Polish, just as there are Ukrainians in Poland who speak Polish and not Ukrainian. Are you suggesting that if you speak Ukrainian, you are by nature a Byzantine (Orthodox or Greek Catholic), while if you speak Polish, you are by nature Latin? That the Latin Church should simply write off those of its members who live in Russia or Ukraine, and who happen, by accident of history, to be native speakers of Russian or Ukrainian? Would you suggest, then, that the Orthodox in the United States should not celebrate the Divine Liturgy in English, for fear of attracting converts from the Western Church? Really?

And this is a GOOD thing? How many of the Lemko actually understand Slavonic? Isn't it the Orthodox ideal that EVERY language is liturgical?