www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Good News for People Concerned about Inclusive Language

It has been obvious in many posts that people are concerned about inclusive language in the New Translation and in fact many have written about the (few) times that language reflecting a less genderized perspective occur.

To help keep the record straight, I think it should also be pointed out that the Liturgy has maintained non-inclusive language in many places. Yesterday was the first time we used the new translation for St Basil's liturgy. If you look at the eucharistic prayers carefully, you will see that the translators did not choose to utilize horizontal inclusive language in many places. The word "man" shows up repeatedly and has been retained throughout.

Thus, while some may be concerned about a few translations, it is incorrect to state that the new translation has wholly adopted an inclusive agenda, etc.

"To help keep the record straight, I think it should also be pointed out that the Liturgy has maintained non-inclusive language in many places. "

That's hilarious. Boy, I'm glad we got the record straight now. Yeah, if we just look at what didn't change then we won't notice what did change and we'll all see that this is just a big misunderstanding.

If your so proud of where the Pink Book (also known as the New Liturgy) doesn't use inclusive language then surely you must be embarassed and acquiesce to the fact that it shouldn't be in there in the places that it is.

Even if you think that it should be in there, then why not in other areas? Which one is it?

How do we know that this isn't the first step towards having inclusive language in more places?

The bottom line is that the Pink Book is going to be a disaster and those who can think for themselves are not drinking the kool-aid.

btw, we're still awaiting your reply to the following:

Which official Orthodox Liturgicion prescribes the prayer of the First Antiphon be prayed aloud, removes the Little Litanies, and prohibits more then one verse of the Antiphons?

Which official Orthodox Liturgicion prescribes that the prayers be prayed aloud after the Latin custom?



Monomakh

"Pink Book"???? I thought it was Green myself....Unless perhaps you ascribe some other meaning to your description of the color of the book, no?

I can't think of a more appropriate color for a book that has items in it driven by feminization can you?

Plus, if you water down red you get pink, and the pink book is a watered down red book in many ways.


Monomakh

History repeats itself and you Ruthenians are getting familiar with the clerical propaganda techniques used to inflict the Novus Ordo on the Roman Catholics.

The Liturgy of St Basil Liturgikon is more of beige color.

RE: Even if you think that it should be in there, then why not in other areas? Which one is it?

My answer: Actually, if you look at the Liturgy of St Basil and the prayers, they are very difficult to translate into English. If I had my way, we would pray the prayers in Greek and thus preserve the deep nuances in the original where St Basil compares and contrasts Adam and Christ in a beautiful and deeply meaningful way. But this is extremely difficult to translate into English without losing the sense. In this case, inclusive language would obscure the connection between "the first man" (meaning Adam" and "the second man" (meaning Christ). It would also disturb the connection between the sin brought about by "a man" and the salvation brought into time by "a woman." Thus, it seems clear to me that there is no feminist agenda in the new translation--even if you disagree with the choices, it is very clear to me that the translators were really trying to convey the original sense in the best possible English translation.


RE: Which official Orthodox Liturgicion prescribes the prayer of the First Antiphon be prayed aloud, removes the Little Litanies, and prohibits more then one verse of the Antiphons?

Which official Orthodox Liturgicion prescribes that the prayers be prayed aloud after the Latin custom?

My answer: I would refer you here to the corpus of literature that exists in answer to your questions. See the writings of Fr Alexander Schmemann and Fr Robert Taft. Both questions are answered in great detail there.

How do we know it is? As PrJ stated, the the Liturgical Committe did not revise prayers where an inclusive language would have changed/destroyed the theology -- the lex credendi.

Many of the posts in this Forum about the Revised Liturgy have compared it to the Novus Ordo of the Latin Church. Vatican II was supposed to "open the windows and bring in a breath of fresh air." Unfortunately, for the Latin Church, it brought in a tornado. Nevertheless, fresh air is a good thing. The Church is built on the Rock of Peter, but that doesn't mean Christ intended for it to become PETRIFIED!

I'll take a PETRIFIED version of the Byzantine liturgy any day, over a feminized chopped up version of the same thing.

P.S. I visited a BCC church Friday with some friends for a pre-sanctified. Whew! Between the kneeling and the sitting I thought I was in an RC church. The best part was the inclusive language.

I thought I might need oxygen afterwards, but when I got to my Pravoslav vespers on Saturday, everything returned to normal, no medication required.

Is there a new version of the Pre-sancitified as well? Last I knew Passaic was stilling using the one issued by Bp. Andrew when he came to Passaic from Parma. That one does not have inclusive language. Haven't been to one this year, so I can't say if the Passaic version of the Pre-sanctified has been updated. Anyone?

The short answer is NO -- there is no officially distributed Presanctified Liturgy.

Thank you Father. I'm assuming that you meant that there is no newly promulgated Presanctified for the whole Metropolia of Pittsburgh? The text that we've been using for the last ten years or so, was officially promulgated by Bp. Andrew, for Passaic, to replace the previously used Levkulic version and was to be used until "such time as the council of bishops authorizes a new text." John K

Yes that is what I meant.

As we have seen, there is no inclusive language in the BCC Pre-Sanctified.

What did you really hear?

I can't speak for Etnick, but the Pre-Santified Liturgy that I was at on Friday evening at a Northeast Ohio Byzantine Church ended with the priest telling us not telling that Christ loves mankind but rather '...he loves us all'.

Concluding the same as the Pink Book does.

Monomakh