www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Good News for People Concerned about Inclusive Language

Dear Monomakh,

The laundry list of complaints below, with few exceptions, has little to do with the Revised Liturgy. However, here are my answers to your complaints:
Even our creed wasn't set for centuries after Acts 28.
We don't have any in our church.
Even on a weekday, we don't get out in less than 55 minutes.
We currently have Matins during Lent. I would expect that we will eventually have them on Sunday mornings as well.
We don't have them often, but we are incorporating them for major feast days.
Last time I heard, the Church's "day" began with vespers, per Genesis: "It was the EVENING and morning of the first day ..."
We don't in my parish. In fact, few of us kneel on weekdays either. Our pastor dealt privately with those who knelt on Sundays. When a few of us began standing on weekdays, it caught on with the others. Maybe you could try that approach in your parish.
We don't have stations in our church, and if anyone or group wants to say the rosary in church, they may, but it's not a part of our parish services.
Originally, the Royal Doors were the doors of the church. They were closed when the catechumens were dismissed. Since we don't have catechumens, we don't close the Royal Doors during Divine Liturgy, although they remain closed during vespers and other services.
Fast periods are noted in announcements at the end of Liturgy and in our bulletins -- Philips Fast, Great Lent, Apostles Fast and Dormition. We also observe Exaltation of the Cross as a fast day.
Yes, we have pews. Pews are a matter of custom, but not part of Tradition, since they are not part of the Liturgy, Scripture or teaching of the Church Fathers.
Those who are able and desire to do prostrations move into the aisle and do prostrations during the Hours and Presanctified Liturgy of Lent. Our priest and all altar servers do the prostrations.
Antiphons were originally sung on the way to church and did not become part of the Liturgy until the 4th century. You are certainly free to sing them in your car on your way to church if you want.
We have All Souls Saturdays on Saturday morning. I'm not sure what you are referring to when you write of "chopped up" Presanctified Liturgy.
I'm sorry you fail to do so. As you know from my previous postings, I really don't see this as an issue. However, I am wondering whether the priests in your area who apparently don't offer vespers, matins, All Souls Saturdays, etc. -- and the people who don't fast, do prostrations and kneel on Sundays -- are also the same ones who are against implementing the Revised Liturgy. If so, perhaps the issue is reluctance to ANY change, rather than a problem with inclusive language.
Based on my answers above, my parish out here in the West seems to be well on the way to being returned to the traditions. Partly, this may be because most of us are all came from somewhere else and since local custom in the East differed so widely, it was easier for everyone to adapt.

The pot calling the kettle black? Well, all I've ever heard regarding the reason we can't return to our roots is because of pastoral sensitivy but this new liturgy doesn't seem to fall under that. I think you need to check which one of us is the kettle and which on is the pot.


btw, can you cite where I've encouraged people to 'flee' from their church. Because I haven't fled. I know people who have and when they tell me why I can't argue with them and dispute their reasons. Maybe you can inform me what to tell them. Why do 90%+ of our churches not have Vespers or Matins? I'd be more than happy to pass on the info to those who have left or are thinking of leaving. What I've always said is that people aren't really leaving the Byzantine Church, but rather the Byzantine Church is leaving its people. Do you disagree with that?

Monomakh

Sophia, what traditions is the western parish returning to? One must remember that we are of the Rusyn tradition and we indeed have certain small traditions we must safe guard while battling latinizations and replacing our traditions with other traditions.
It is improper to simply assume that your parish in the west is more Byzantine Catholic than a good old timin' parish in the PA coal fields.

Hi Sophia. so what you are stating is that as long as your minister prayers aren't destroyed theologically it is ok to introduce inclusive language for the people who will end up being the most confused. are you suggesting a parallel theology for your church? being all things for all people? high theology for those of the cloth and low theology for the congregation. Why are those of the cloth so special not to have their worship prayers altered in the name of inclusivity? I am surprised that the catholics are dumbing down their belief system. Beuatiful chuches - schizoiphrenic tehology prayers. This is all too confusing. I really feel sorry for my byzcath family and friends. This must be difficult times for them to understand.

Eddie

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The power of suggestion repeated over and over is a tool of advertising. If people hear something often enough they believe it.

I can only speak of my experience over the past fifty years and here are the reasons that I have seen people leave the Byzantine Catholic Church:

"Their Mass is shorter"
"My friends go there."
"Its more convenient."
"The newly remodeled (Eastern style) is too 'busy.' (That means too ornate in their opinion."
"I want to go where no one knows me."
"I like the priest better." (Of course, there are four Roman priest to every one of ours.)
"They don't ask for money."
"They don't talk about sin."
"Its closer."

None of these reasons are because of "flawed" Liturgy or "flawed" theology. They have no idea what the "Ruthenien Rescension" is, much less care.

The only people who went to the Orthodox church are a priest candidate who wanted to marry and his cousins. Again, not because of theology or Liturgy.

Its much more important to get the Sunday "obligation" "out of the way. I don't ever recall anyone saying of a BC Divine Liturgy that they wish it were longer. The problem is our "Hollywood culture" that has become the symbol of the American people.

This is way off the subject but I keep remembering Our Lady of Fatima (yeah, I know she's not Eastern) pleading for people to pray for Russia because it will "spread its errors throughout the world."
What would she say about the United States today with its "culture of death" and it porn, sodomy, and broken families?

Likewise, it is also improper to infer that based soley on one's experiences in PA that ALL parishes in the entire Pittsburgh Metropolia do things the same way.

This is beginning to sound like:
'my parish is better than your parish'
'is not!,
'is too'

There are good parishes in PA as well as heavily "Latinised" parishes.

This thread is rapidly spiraling into a broadbrushed smear campaign against the "Revised Liturgy" and any who in some way find some good in the efforts of our Bishops.

While there is catharsis in smearing each other publicly over our definitions of liturgy, revisions, T/t-traditions, which parish provides vesper-matins-compline-akathists-molebens-etc liturgies, perhaps we should focus our energies where best put; writing letters to our Hierarchs! Work on living the tradition rather than telling others how to live it. Lead by example.

There's not enough time in a day for me to share all of the stories of people who have left the Byzantine Church for Orthodoxy.

To say that the only people who went to Orthodoxy is some priest who wanted to marry is interesting to say it nice.

I don't know if you've noticed but Etnick is a regular poster who was Byzantine and who left.

I visited an OCA church in Tampa while on business for presanctified (the Byzantine churches down there did presanctified in the morning?) and the whole church was former Byzantines, including the priest.

The priest at St. Innocent OCA in Olmsted Falls Ohio is a former Byzantine (and not because he wanted to get married).

I can go on and on.

Believe me when I tell you there's more than some priest who wants to get married who's leaving. I hope that our church comes to its senses and becomes what its supposed to be, Orthodox in Union With Rome. It may be too late.

Monomakh

Well, Paul B., I guess I'll be the first to tell you I wish Liturgy were longer, not shorter.

I wish the Inclusive Language "thingie" would have never been placed in our Ancient Liturgy.

I wish the Hierarchs would have left the Creed alone.

I wish the Hierarchs would have included all three verses of the Antiphons.

I wish the Hierarchs would have left ALL the Litanies in the Divine Liturgy.

I wish the Hierarchs would have given every Parish the opportunity to celebrate the Red Book before reinventing the wheel.

I wish the Hierarchs would insist every Parish begin rasing funds for Icon Screens.

I wish the Hierarchs would enforce the correct Liturgical cycles.

Like Monomakh, I could go on and on.

Mostly, though, I wish our Hierarchs would provide the needed leadership to take our church in the direction it needs to go, Orthodox in Union with Rome. Mainly, because I don't want to have to explain to my young children why we are leaving for the Orthodox Church. That truly will be a sad day in my household.

And by the way, I'm already married, and happen to be a cradle Byzantine who has been lucky enough to have had a pastor educate me. (There goes the marriage assumption, and the convert assumption). Also, many, many parishioners at St. Theodosious Orthodox Cathedral in Cleveland are former Byzantine Catholics -- including the Priest. How do I know? I went there to celebrate the Canon of St. Andrew to begin the Great Fast, which my Parish didn't offer.

What on earth is that supposed to mean?

Dear Paul,

We Orthodox WROTE the Gospel!

Alexandr

Dear Alexandr,

So did we CATHOLICS -- after all, we were one at the time!

Yes, the good old days when Catholics were Orthodox, and Protestants were a bad dream.

Alexandr

And when the Orthodox were in communion with Rome - I agree, those were good days!

I thought former Jews did.

Eddie

I would not call it a smear campaign--that is a little harsh. I think that there are good things about the new Liturgy. For example, "essence" is more theologically sound than "substance".
"Grant this O Lord" is a better translation than "Grant it O Lord" (and it sings better too!) And there are other examples. But the inclusive language has overshadowed anything that was improved. Language is also part of Tradition. When you water down the language by surrendering to the politically correct secular agendas of the world, you have started the proverbial snowball rolling down the mountain side. You will see--it will continue--subtle at first like the revision--then more pronounced. Many of us feel betrayed. We are not trouble makers. We are wounded and weeping for our Liturgy.