www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Orthodoxy, Athos & ecumenism

I've noticed threads being closed lately when the views of the Orthodox Churches, or should I say monasteries, regarding ecumenism and relations with the Catholic Church come into question.

Almost twenty tears ago I went through a period of discernment between Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

I corresponded cordially for some time with a couple of monks at an Orthodox monastery here in the U.S. who told me their monastery carries on the rule, beliefs and faith of the monasteries of Mount Athos. The monk's final correspondence with me came in the form of a rather large packet of literature and information citing the errors of Catholicism and ecumenism in general. They told me in no uncertain terms I must disavow the Catholic Church in order to embrace Orthodoxy. Needless to say I was unwilling to deny the Catholic Church in order to be "O"rthodox and I remain a Catholic today.

I post this because I see threads which sometimes seem to me to be critical of the Catholic Church and its positions, beliefs and/or praxis go on unabated but a topic such as this regarding Orthodoxy gets closed rather quickly.

I realize we are now well into Lent/Great Fast and I do not wish to disrupt but fair is fair.

In Christ,
Bill

My impression is the administrators are not simply biased in favor of Orthodoxy, and that there are some rather specific reasons why threads get closed. I'm fairly certain that is the case with a recent thread I'm thinking of.

Dear AMM,

I agree with you, though a warning or reprimand would have been more in order rather than closing the thread. I find this forum to be most charitable even in disagreement.

Peace,
Bill

Bill,

Let be honest and stop with the games, how do you know that a warning was not given, and yet was not being yielded? Posters have been asking if not begging that certain posts be refrained from and yet threads like your own seem to be posted as a way to draw posters in, inflame passions, and outright ruin what they asking for in trying to maintain the fast.

So in order to please you, I am reopening the thread, but not before outright banning at least one poster. I hope that is now satisfactory to you.

I would like to thank you for help ruining a fast that I and several others have been striving to be keeping. If this seems to be harsh, take it as just that. I would strongly suggest that you do not offer any apology or justification for I and some others would consider them to be just empty words.

Father Anthony+
Administrator

Bill, when I was received into the OCA, i did not make the denunciations of my Catholic Faith but a positive affirmation of Orthodox Faith

OK, this has been going on long enough. I simply refuse to stand by and allow such nonsense to go unanswered. I have made numerous pleas to hold off on such subjects until after the Great Fast, but I suppose some people can't resist Ortho bashing while they know we are fasting. So what the heck, my passions are worked up now, thanks to some "cute" individuals. I hope you like what you see.

Fasting. Ever hear of it? No, I'm not talking about giving up gummi bears for Lent, I'm talking about real fasting. Not that I would expect an American Roman Catholic to know anything about it, but for we Orthodox, Great Lent is a time to be passionless, dwelling on our weaknesses and transgressions, dwelling within, to cleanse ourselves and prepare for the glorious Resurrection of Christ. I suppose that because we of the True Faith are otherwise occupied, some individuals see it as an opportunity to slander God's Holy Church. And that is exactly the reason why that particular thread was shot down, because of stupid, uncharitable comments directed towards Orthodox Christians by someone who is totally ignorant of Orthodoxy. Closing the thread was undoubtedly an effort on the part of the moderators to preserve the spirit of Great Lent which Orthodox and Byzantine Catholics share, and to stifle further uncharitable comments.

In regards to what that Orthodox monk told you, Bill, he was 100% correct. God bless him for speaking the truth. The fact that you were unwilling to do so, means that you made the best decision, because the last thing that the Orthodox Church needs is converts with baggage, i.e., those that convert for the wrong reason. Orthodoxy is Orthodoxy, not Catholicism with beards. You DO NOT believe what we believe and vice versa. You have adopted erroneous beliefs and dogma, and have allowed innovation into your beliefs. You want to reconcile? Fine. Renounce your errors and come back. Otherwise, no dice. WE WILL NOT COMPROMISE THE FAITH. I am sick of this politically correct garbage being spewn by some who fear to hear the truth.

As far as priority given to Catholic bashing, show me a thread of Catholic bashing done by Orthodox. Not that it would be difficult to do. Personally, I have gone out of my way to give credit to Pope Benedict and the late Pope John Paul. I have listened attentively to the Nativity addresses of Catholic hierarchs, with approval. At the same time, the Forum is inundated with slurs and outright attacks on Orthodoxy, with the Moscow Patriarchate and the Russian Church singled out for especially viscous attacks, followed closely by the blessed brotherhood of Athos. If you don't like Orthodox monastics, fine. Keep your opinion to yourself. At least we HAVE monastics, not blue jean wearing nuns with guitars singing Kumbaya.

Just recently, someone posted about FEMALE LAYPERSONS(!!!) distributing the Eucharist to the infirm in the Byzantine Catholic Church, and many see nothing wrong with this. Well, if you fail to see the scaly claw of Satan here, you are so far in prelest that up must seem down to you and dark, light. It is beca7use of nonsense like this that, quite frankly, I really don't care to have ecumenical relations with the Catholics until you see the errors of your ways. God knows we don't need your illness infecting us.

Once again, thanks to those wonderful posters who have gone out of their way to attempt to ruin mine and many others Great Lent. I'll be sure to do the same for you at your next bingo or polka mass.

Going back to Velike Post.

Alexandr

Athanasius the L,

Your report a post has been received and your complaint is unfounded.

Father Anthony+
Administrator

Folks,

Let us not incite one another to anger. What good are these arguments anyway since they are not going to change anyone's mind. Honest discussions about differences and what would be needed for reunion are perfectly fine. These kinds of talks need to happen. But, if we post merely to win or to one-up the other side, then all we do is tempt one another to sin. Also, let us try to listen to one another before making a hasty judgment. Let us understand what the holy monks of Athos have said in the proper context. Let us put all things in their appropriate context. If I have ever offended anyone, then I ask for your forgiveness. Be blessed.

Joe

If there are individuals who have a problem with what I have posted, perhaps they should be man enough to confront me directly, rather than running to the moderators like school children.

Alexandr

Athanasius the L,

Since RCGuest has done his best to destroy my fast, I am going to be quite blunt in my next statement, since I have lost my patience which will be a matter for myself and my confessor. I stand by my earlier post to you, and strongly suggest that if you have an issue you publicly confront the poster, if not stop the whining.

Father Anthony+
Administrator

Dear Alexandr:
I think you are right in protesting that there are those who are engaging in "Orthodox bashing"-both in this thread and in the recently-closed thread in which the monks at Athos were attacked by some posters. In your zeal (which is in itself a good thing-I would even say a gift from God), I think sometimes you resort to language that is not especially helpful. For example, you have characterized the comments of others as "stupid." Perhaps they are. But I ask, are you going to persuade your adversaries of their errors by using words that will only be taken as insults? Your argument in this thread has great merit and I find it to be very convincing. The use of words such as "stupid" and "ignorant" is not needed. In my opinion, it is more inflammatory than anything else and detracts from what is otherwise a very compelling argument.
Sincerely,
Ryan

I agree with you Joe. Personally, I don't post here to argue or change anybody's mind. I'm not interested in that, though sometimes I do believe people can be annoyed by some of the things I say.

Bill,

I can understand and respect your position that as a Catholic you did not wish to renounce your background and your faith, if that was what was required of you. Certainly if you are Catholic and you become Orthodox you are if not renouncing some things, I think you are certainly no longer giving assent to some things the Roman Catholic Church proclaims about itself. Maybe that's really just the same thing though. Being an Orthodox Christian I certainly think the RC Church has some things wrong, but by the same token my faith is about being Orthodox and not about not being Catholic. I hope that makes sense.

Really though for me I didn't contemplate a list of things I did accept or didn't accept when I came in to Orthodoxy. I experienced a faith community full of people that was worshipping God. I felt at home there, and in reality "Orthodoxy" for me most of the time is my parish and the people around me. A lot of the rest isn't reality-reality. It's real, but not in exactly the same sense. Also in my parish, I know people who were formerly Catholic, Byzantine and Roman. Some came through individual choice, some through marriage, and some through marriage but who never converted. All I'm sure would say there are some differences, and perhaps they would point to specific things they gave up or received. Obviously for those who did not formally convert the inability to receive communion is a major difference and reminder of the existing gap between the two churches. The main point to me however is I don't think these people feel like they are participating in a faith community that's all about rejecting them or renouncing their faith or their past.

Take all of that for whatever it's worth.

Thanks AMM, I appreciate your reply. Let me add something as well. I became, as many of you know, Orthodox this past Theophany. I was Greek Melkite Catholic for 12 years prior. I still love the Melkite Church deeply. I respect and admire Pope Benedict XVI very much and I admire the late John Paul II and many Roman Catholic thinkers for that matter. When I made the decision to become Orthodox, I realized that while I thought that some positions of the Roman Church were, in fact, wrong, I realized that I am not infallible and they could be right and I could be wrong. I cannot claim to have certitude about the absolute truth of this. I can only make the best decision that I think is right in light of what my conscience tells me. And I seek to develop my conscience prayerfully in accordance with right reason and the sacred Tradition of the Church. I realize that people of good faith and sound intellect can disagree over important issues such as the nature of papal primacy. I respect that. I also know that my knowledge of the Church in the world is limited. I do not know that much about the monks of Mt. Athos and so I must be careful in forming an opinion about statements that are made. I must assume that the holy fathers of Mt. Athos have legitimate concerns that should be taken into consideration. Indeed, a popular papal preacher in the Vatican has said that sloppy ecumenism is not right either. In fact, he used language harsher than heresy even. He called it the spirit of Antichrist and I understand his point though I am not used to his rhetorical style. In any event, we will all answer to God before anyone else. God will sort everything out for us. I personally believe that God desires to save all who, with repentant and humble heart, desire to be saved and strive to do good. None of us has perfect understanding. I know that I don't. I hope that God will save me in spite of my errors, many of which are unknown to me. God bless.

Joe

stu�pid /ˈstupɪd, ˈstyu‑/ Pronunciation[stoo-pid, styoo‑]
adjective
1. lacking ordinary quickness and keenness of mind; dull.
2. characterized by or proceeding from mental dullness; foolish; senseless: a stupid question.
3. tediously dull, esp. due to lack of meaning or sense; inane; pointless: a stupid party.

When someone makes comments about Orthodox accepting Catholic money, well, I cannot think of an adjective that better describes such a statement.

It has been my experience Ryan that truth is not politically expedient. If it were, then falsehood would not be the primary armament of politicians. Once again, soft words are not those best remembered. If your child runs out into traffic, do you reproach him gently and say "there there, my poor child", or do you give him a swift crack on the a** and tell him "don't ever do that again"?

Interpersonal communication in the western world has degenerated to the point that no one is ever actually cognizant of what anyone else actually means. This we call political correctness. I say lets go back to the old ways and call a spade, a spade, and not a "tool for digging, having an iron blade adapted for pressing into the ground with the foot and a long handle commonly with a grip or crosspiece at the top, and with the blade usually narrower and flatter than that of a shovel." Life would be much simpler.

Alexandr

At times like this, I remember a saying of my very pious grandmother who used to remind me when I would get upset -- "Remember, you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar!"

I would hope that our words while honest would contain enough honey to attract the flies of this world!

As one who spends most of his life discussing these kinds of issues with today's secular youth, I can tell you that there is very little that pushes them further from the Faith than when they hear Christians fighting each other and calling each other names.

I would hate to stand before God on that Great and Final Day (that our liturgical texts this Lent talk so much about) and have to answer for the souls of those whom I have turned away from the Faith because of my harsh words towards fellow Christians. Remember, it was our Lord who reminded us that we shall have to give an account for every idle word.

And ... that reminds me of a Lenten prayer: "O Lord take from me the spirit of sloth, despair, lust of power and idle talk!"