www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Good News for People Concerned about Inclusive Language

People are not converting to Orthodoxy because of the change in Liturgy. They are just using it as an excuse.

Christ is risen!

Monomakh, I very much dislike being involved in these petty arguments which then go on and on wasting the time of all involved and exposing the readers of this forum to this senseless raving, but since you called me out "into the street" here goes.

I know it is unfair to take exerpts because they distort the original conversations but I don't know how else to abbreviate this lengthy post, so please forgive me for doing so. I've ommitted many posts which disrespected the comments of clergy and brother believers.

Your comments infer that our Church is "sinking", that our services, clergy, practices and language are inferior to the Orthodox Church suggests to an outside reader that they should prefer joining the Orthodox Church to ours. If this were an Orthodox Church site which hosts the forum this would be understandable, but I'm reading this on byzcath.org

One can cause a riot without directly asking people to riot. The tone, passion and emotions set an atmosphere which encourage it. It was to this attitude, rather than your direct words to which I made my claim.

I will not post any more responses to this subject.

Here are some of your comments:
11/22/06 #214784
Picking a fight? So we can't have an honest discussion as to the fact that it is the Catholic Church, and in this case the Byzantine Rite of the Catholic Church, that has reformed, changed, modernized, whatever you want to call it way more than the Orthodox in respect to Tradition. I went to a public school and even I could figure that answer out. It's obvious. Anyone who wanted to fight over it would be denying the truth. Did it ever occur to anyone that this is why people are leaving for Orthodoxy? Hence, that's why I've said time and time again on here, that people who are going Orthodox don't see it all as them leaving the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church has left them.

At the end of the day, it's your decision as to why you personally wouldn't leave for Orthodoxy and you gave some reasons. fwiw, I haven't left and I'm still here kicking and screaming. But, I can't argue with those who want to be somewhere that is more Traditional and isn't in Union

1/09/07 #219146
What a sad day when we as Eastern Christians are told that it is wrong to practice as our ancestors did. Our ancestors would be ashamed to see that what they handed to us has been corrupted and revised. I am ashamed of what our rite has become, but even sadder is that the loss of more people and the increase in animosity is something that our rite cannot sustain. Sadly, this is the beginning of the end. Prayers that this may not be so.

2/16/07 #224199
It's ashame to see the patronizing that exists in our clergy even when they know they are wrong. No wonder that our church is in steep decline and will fall even further with this debacle of a liturgy. PrJ, continue to play your violin as Rome burns.

Are you really proud of an eparchy in which:

90%+ of our parishes don't celebrate vespers?

90%+ of our parishes don't celebrate matins?

the vast majority of our faithful kneel on Sundays?

etc., etc., etc.

It's no wonder people are turning to Orthodoxy.

how truly sad

------
3/6/07 #225735
And for some reason you want to take as many obscure and liberal examples out there and combine them together to get the Byzantine Catholic Church. Justify our majority by citing the remote minority somewhere else. We are supposed to forget about the other 99 out of 100 Orthodox churches that have Traditional sense. We're supposed to forget about the inclusive language and be thankful for the areas where there is not any inclusive language and thank Master Liturgical Commission from Pittsburgh. No wonder people are fleeing to Orthodoxy?!
----

I'll be brutally honest again, if we ever expect the Orthodox to take us seriously and move towards any kind of union, then a very basic thing like proskomedia needs to be done the right way for crying out loud! Why in nearly every instance are we Byzantines the ones that short cut, chop up, ignore, and water down? The revised translation is yet another example in a long line of this.
(Inferring that we should be begging the Orthodox Church to take us in because we are inferior.) my words pb
----
9/27/07 #208496
Since it is inevitable, the real discussion for me now is what to do? Stay or go? If I go, what Greek Catholic rite should I go to. Much prayer, reflection, and thought is needed over the next coming months.

Too sad.

If I do go, the bottom line is that I'm not really leaving the Byzantine Catholic Church of America, the Byzantine Catholic Church of America is leaving me.


-

8/17/06 #208323
the main thing that is changing is our numbers, meaning the number of families and people attending our churches. Overall, they are on a steep decline. The time, money, and effort should be used to evangelize and not chop up and feminize our Liturgy.

- ----

5/12/06 50148
The ship is sinking and noone is supposed to ask why all of the water is coming in. Noone is supposed to ask what the heck is going on. Two churches virtually next to each other are going in two different directions but there's nothing to worry about because it is poor sampling. I'm sure it's fine everywhere else. Father Loya must be incorrect when he says that we are imploding as a church.

Here, have some more koolaid.
Quote:

...I would be singing the Matins before Sunday liturgy
Have fun singing them by yourself in 15 years. Our leadership thinks just like you and it's no mystery where we're all going.

---

Finally, I sense that you are very hurt by something that happened in the past that makes you want to criticize almost everything that our Church does. I have seen this with others and I truly am sorry. I pray that you will find peace.
Father Deacon Paul

Christ is Risen!

Father Deacon Paul,

I agree with you that many, many people have been hurt by what the bishops have done to us. The liturgical revision is totally unnecessary and will soon � pray God � implode under its own failings. But it will take a long time for the people who have been hurt to heal. And there are many will not be able to heal in our Church after being hurt so badly by our bishops. They will have to go elsewhere.

On the other points you have made I think that you excerpts are interesting. They provide a solid outline demonstrating that we are still embarrassed of who we are and who we are called to be � Orthodox in theology and liturgy and in communion with Rome. Monomakh has posted nothing that I do not hear from our clergy and people on a daily basis. Consider that many of those examples you posted are true, and are very valid reasons for why our Church is dying.

You suggested that Monomakh was inferring that our Church is �sinking�. I can�t speak for him but I will state openly that we are sinking. The Revised Liturgy is indeed inferior to the official Ruthenian Liturgy our bishops refuse to allow. Only an embracement of our own liturgical tradition � and not more latinizations as found in the Revised Liturgy � will save us and help us to grow. If you doubt this then step back and review the parishes that are growing and dying and consider the liturgical celebration in each.

Admin John

Amen.
My question is where can I pray and still be with the chair of Peter. How long can I wait for Rome to change it back?

Really? Oh, allow me to prostrate myself at your feet, Oh All Seeing One, who is able to see into men's hearts over the internet!

I see that you are new, so I will let it go at that, but please think before you defame some very good people.

Alexandr

I would just like to add that my former BCC parish is having their first RDL on April 22nd. I plan on attending with my father, (who is still BCC) to listen to a neutered creed, finally hear what the new music is like, hopefully survive it, and give thanks to God that I did what I did five months ago.

To those who are leaving for Orthodoxy, you are in my prayers. To those who stay in the BCC, I've been praying for you more than you know.

Christos Inviat! Christos Voskrese! Christos Anesti!

Father Deacon Paul,

Voistinnu Voskrese!

I don't know where to start, so I'll start with the fact that I have not encouraged people to flee to Orthodoxy as you have claimed and I would ask that you withdraw and apologize for the specious accusation.

I've read and reread your post several times because (and I'm not trying to be sarcastic) at first I thought you were being sarcastic and having a little fun with satire, but I've come to the conclusion that you are dead serious in what you wrote. If I am incorrect in this conclusion please let me know.

You stated that my 'comments infer that our church is sinking'. Let me be clear, I am not infering this, I am saying this, stating this, and shouting this out from the highest mountain. Are you unaware that baptisms are a rarity and funerals are frequent in the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh, Eparchy of Parma, and Eparchy of Passaic. You can't seriously think that membership is not down and that we are attracting young families do you? If you as a member of our clergy can't agree that a problem exists in the face of overwhelming evidence then I really don't know what else to say. I'm in my mid thirties, there's hardly a church in the eparchies that I named above that I've attended where I'm the only person without grey hair. I can't tell you how many times when I've taken my young children how people have come up to me after liturgy and said, "wow, it's been a long time since we've heard a baby crying in church". I'm not making this up. This is frightening. I mean do the math, look at our congregations, add 30 years to it, and what do you see?

Regarding our services being inferior. I agree with the admin that the Revised Liturgy is indeed inferior to the official Ruthenian Liturgy our bishops refuse to allow. 90% of our churches have no Vespers or Matins, how can I say that our Vespers and Matins services are equal when we don't even have them in 90% of parishes!

Certainly you are aware that the Catherdral in Munhall, which has a full time priest and a more than qualified cantor, does not have Vespers on Saturdays. There's simply no excuse for this. It is not my attitude that is incorrect, this is not stated as encouragement to have others go to the Orthodox church, it is not uncharitable, it is plain and simple the truth, it is a fact. You may not this fact. The truth more than often hurts. But the fact is that Vespers should be celebrated there on Saturday evenings. It is inferior to not have Vespers especially at the Archeparchy's Cathedral and other parishes where it is possible. 90% of our parishes not celebrating Vespers and Matins is a tragedy. Don't you agree?

Archbishop Basil has called for our churches to be an 'authentic place of worship'. Having Vespers at the Cathedral in Munhall on Saturdays would be a great starting place.

You also wrote:
"I sense that you are very hurt by something that happened in the past that makes you want to criticize almost everything that our Church does."

Actually I'm hurt by what our church does NOT do.

We don't celebrate Vespers, Matins, Canon of St. Andrew in 90-95% of our churches.

We don't have more than one verse of antiphons with the new liturgy.

We don't take the little litanies with the new liturgy.

etc.

In closing, I do thank you for reposting some of my past posts. There's nothing in them that encourages people to jump to the Orthodox church. Rather it encourages our church to be Orthodox in Union with Rome.


Monomakh

Dear Monomakh,

Unfortunately I knew he was writing in dead earnest. But I am happy that you and the Administrator said something first.

It is appalling, sickening, terrifying and enraging to hear our minor clergy droning on about the glories of the Byzantine Church while it stands naked to the bone in the eyes of most of our priests and lay faithful.

To listen to this and to those who would embrace what has happened as a necessary "pruning" and "good riddance" is like watching the demons pulling the weak and those in denial off the ladder of divine ascent. They are too enraptured by what they hear as the silver tones of their own tongues to know that they are fallen.




Lets talk about the attrition of priests at the most rapid rate in the history of the Church in this country, while elsewhere, numbers of vocations are slowly recoving. Let's try to follow those demographics and ask what happened to the priests of our Metropolia in the past ten years.



The first Orthodox liturgy that I ever attended was Vespers. Why? Because I keep a daily prayer discipline of the hours and wanted to have one or two times a week where I could share some of those hours in community, though in the main I am content in my solitude.

Aside from my spiritual father, the only Church or members of a Church that have responded to my express desire to lead a consecrated life as an avowed religious, and who have actively assisted me spiritually, in the discernment of a vocation, have been the Orthodox Church and Orthodox monastics.

From my own Church there has been nothing but open mockery of my spiritual father, and outright rejection of any potential for a vocation for me, or predominantly, silence in response to any direct inquiry. I suppose the silence is a blessing.

Mary

Christ is Risen!

Do not put words in my mouth; you say that I'm oblivious to the shrinkage of our church? I am not! But you can't say that other churches are not also experiencing shrinkage or you are denying the facts.

I am not your enemy; if you read this forum you surely must notice that people are turned off by the negativity and PERCEIVED attacks on those who try to explain the opposing rationale.

The revisions have become a lightning rod for dissatisfaction. This is human nature. I believe that over the years this revision too, will modify; just as all the others have over the centuries. Before you all jump over me by saying the DL hasn't changed, you are mistaken. In the 300 years at the middle to end of the first milennium there were very major changes. All the references to the Trinity weren't there from the beginning. Because the great Cathedral in Constantantinople was the parish of the Emperor the Litury surely must have been loaded with pomp that wasn't relevant to the peasant in the Slav lands. But this is not meant to be my point.

The following comments are not intended for anyone personally, but generally to our Rusyn people.
Our faithful people have(fortunately)not fully been absorbed by the American culture. The downside of this is that we are not real civil to our own. We bicker and fight and argue and try to bring down those who disagee so that we can make ourselves feel better. I can remember as a child going to the Lodge to pay our insurance and I knew I was at the right house because of all the arguing. That is typical of our people; that is why we never had a country. We fought each other, knowing that we were "family" and we would forget and fight another day. We stay together but never united; the internal bickering never allowed us to unify enough to overcome outsiders.

"The enemy of our enemy is our friend"; our people very much put that into practice. If someone would try to emerge as a leader our "who are you, you're just a commoner like us? mentality made our own people sell them out to the Hungarian, or the Austrian, the Slovaks or the Ukrainians, whoever would give the "leader" their comeuppance.

As an example, below is an excerpt form an Orthodox forum. They have the same mentality as our BC Church.

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Topic: LEAVE THE CHURCH??? (Read 2037 times)


0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
LEAVE THE CHURCH???
� on: September 25, 2005, 03:41:38 AM �
________________________________________
HAS ANYONE OUT THERE FELT THAT MAYBE THE ORTHODOX CHURCH WASN'T FOR YOU?? I'M GOING THROUGH A DILEMMA. I AM A CRADLE GREEK ORTHODOX OF A FAMILY THAT WENT TO CHURCH EASTER AND RAN OUT AFTER CHRISTOS ANESTI. I NOW LIVE ABOUT AN HOUR, ONE WAY, FROM THE CLOSEST GREEK CHURCH. THERE IS AN ANTIOCHIAN CHURCH A LITTLE CLOSER THAT I HAVE BEEN GOING TO WITH MY WIFE, BUT WE SEEM TO KEEP BEING DRAWN AWAY FROM IT. THERE IS ALWAYS CONFLICT AND BICKERING AND POWER STRUGGLES. IT'S A CONSTANT STRUGGLE TO WANT TO WAKE UP SUNDAY MORNING TO GO TO CHURCH. WE DON'T LIKE THAT FEELING. IF ANYONE HAS STRUGGLED WITH BEING IN A CHURCH YOU DIDN'T FEEL AT PEACE IN, PLEASE LET US KNOW HOW YOU RESOLVED THE DILEMMA. WE NEED TO GO TO CHURCH EVERY WEEK, OTHERWISE THE REST OF THE WEEK DOESN'T GO TOO WELL. WE DON'T WANT TO LEAVE THE ORTHODOX FAITH, BUT HAVE BEEN THINKING OF GOING TO A NON-DEMONINATIONAL CHURCH FOR A WHILE. ANY ADVICE.

THANK YOU.




� Reply #2 on: September 25, 2005, 06:57:55 AM �
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PsaltiBoy:

I understand your dilemma. The power moves and bickering are distasteful to me and very unchristian. I went through a period similar to you; but, Two things, no three, kept men going. One, I slowly removed myself from church government. I couldn't take it anymore. Two, I thought of my Orthodox faith. What I mean is, my faith was important to me. More important than pettiness. It was something countless numbers of people have fought and died for (even in the last century) and I felt that I owed it to them and to my family that passed the pearl of great price to me. Three, I have a young daughter and I want her to grow up in the faith loving the faith. True, the non-demo church people will greet you with smiles and "Praise the Lord", but the same pettiness exists their as well. It's just better hidden. I've been there. I know. People are people. Pray. Pray for the Church and yourself. (I am preaching to myself as well here.)  I will pray for you and your family.
________________________________________
Save us o' Son of God, who art risen from the dead, as we sing to thee Alleluia!




� Reply #4 on: September 25, 2005, 08:53:14 AM �
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You've gotta know what the True Faith is before you can consider leaving it. The non-denom church does not have it. It is not the Body of Christ. It does not believe in the Body and Blood of Christ. It does not believe in salvation as we do. It is a poor, faded copy of what true joy in Christ is.

When you are an Orthodox Christian, you are believing not in the people around you, who are as awful sinners as you (and me) are, but in the eternal Person of Christ and in His Church. If the Church atmosphere is not so pleasant, that doesn't entirely matter, because you are there not for the atmosphere, but for Christ. The beliefs and teachings of Orthodoxy are true, and they are what matter.

**************
If our people formed a non-denom "feel good" church we would still not draw outsiders because they would not feel wanted. We must have a reconciliation as a people AND as a Church. Until we can do this we will have a "razing" of our Church as Father Thomas says. When we can practice Christ's teaching we will not grow. When we die off and the American culture-fed generation begin to populate our Church (if we can survive)we will have a chance to become inviting as a Church AND as a parish family where people want to raise their family.

If we can set aside our gripes and become constructive we can still change things- the Liturgy; a full slate of services, a parish family who can sit down together AFTER DL and not start to argue. How many people there are who will not attend post-Liturgy coffee because they refuse to be at the the same table (building) as their brother/sister parishioner.
Regarding Vespers, after you get 10 people who will agree to attend and sing, approach your cantor so that they can learn the music. Then you and the cantor approach the priest and request Vespers. Don't tell me that it's the priest's job to serve vespers without encouragement. Yes it is but all the faithful are priests. If you don't care enough to do this then don't gripe; you are demonstrating that you aren't as serous as you appear. Does your pastor take care of more than one parish? Our local Orthodox priest has two parishes and he only has DL every other week at each church; the mission didn't even have Liturgy on Easter, so don't tell me that the Orthodox Church is superior with its services; my pastor has two parishes and he is at each one for Sundays and all except the simply Holydays.

Our church needs a reconciliation; now is a good time. All the faithful want to see our Church survive; Let us be enlightened by this Feast and let us embrace one another. Let us call "Brethern" (no comment please)even those who hate us, and in the Resurrection forgive everything.

To Mary, I think your experience is common. We also had someone interested in a vocation. I found out from a Roman Catholic; she had not even approached anyone to express an interest. Once I became aware I encouraged her to meet with the Sisters and found out that she already had; she just didn't tell anyone. I asked Father to announce it in the bulletin so that people would encourage her to continue.

Thank you for your prayers; let us continue to pray for each other and for our beloved Church.

Father Deacon Paul

To further support my post that our Rusyn people naturally bicker please read toward the end of the article. Because of the disunity of our people the Rusyns in America couldn't even agree on independence for the Homestead Agreement, also know as the "Pittsburgh" agreement.

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[b][i]Aspirations for an Independent Ruthenia
A OVERVIEW, by Julianna Chickov[/b]
In order to obtain a better understanding of Ruthenians and their quest to obtain independence it is necessary to research various reference materials on the subject. Finding information on the topic is difficult. In most cases these books contain information on different heritages for a particular area in Eastern Europe, including the economic and social conditions. We shall primarily take into account here information relating to the period just after the First World War. It was at this time Ruthenians made their voice heard and worked seriously to secure a total autonomous region. Information is available which documents the events that transpired during this period. Today there are more books and articles of recent publication available on this subject. It is still necessary to look at older works even if they are negative, to try and gain a better understanding, past and present opinion, of just what Ruthenians were striving for in regard to autonomy.
Ruthenians immigrated to the United States for a wide range of reasons during the time of 1880 to the 1920's. The conditions in Europe were not good for those who were members of a peasant society, had no say in government, and, were at the bottom of the proverbial minority totem poll due to their governments view of them. The Ruthenians of the former Austro-Hungarian Empire had been kept from growing as a people for centuries due to that Empires policies. Being of the peasant class, there was absolutely no chance for these individuals to change their status and therefore, they were cast in the social ladder positions that their ancestors had held for centuries.
Ruthenian immigrants who came to the United States of America had found freedoms that were denied them in their former homelands. After so many centuries of domination the thought of autonomy grew after the First World War. This was the first time in history that Ruthenians came close to finally having their own free and separate region wherein they would govern and express themselves without hindrance. The momentum for this idea came from America, where, so many Ruthenians had found new homes. A congress was held in Homestead, Pennsylvania in 1918 to address this issue and any other alternatives towards this issue. Unfortunately, the congress was doomed from the beginning as there were so many different ideas as to what type of independence should be offered and more important, who would administer it. As the congress progressed it splintered into various factions with each not willing to compromise with the others and therefore, the end result was a stalemate on this issue. The basis for this idea not taking root are various but a good point to remember is it is no surprise it did not take place as how can a people who never governed themselves be expected to do so if it were immediately, after so many centuries, thrust upon them? The idea of this entire situation was grand in scope, but, unworkable in theory.[/i]

**********
In a "market-driven" materialistic American society will our Byzantine Catholic Church also fail. Our heirarchy is trying to address this crisis, it's been swept under the rug for three generations. Let's agree to disagree about the Divine Liturgy. The laity can argue about the changes and try to convince a pullback; my duty as a deacon is to service my bishop, my pastor and my parish family. The repeated claims the the Liturgy is inferior, defective, awful, heretical and not according to a rescension that people have no inkling about is unhelpful. Rather than learn the new music people are incited to reject it; even before they see it. I don't think my grandparents and ancestors in Spis worried about the Ruthenian Rescension; yet their faith and devotion brought a fledgling immigrant Church to glory.

I'm trying to appeal to reason; my ears are not shut. Every day we get a little older, each day closer to death but I don't dwell on dying. I'm not denying the truth when I go about trying to serve God's will on the present day; rather than dwelling on getting old. But I'm not going to spend my time joining forces with opponents of the liturgy. Do you think that anyone is 100% satisfied with this Liturgy? Even on this forum there were complaints about the "good" DL. In 1960 it was treated as a curse, this "English' Liturgy. And, yoi! CHANGE THE CALENDAR?? You must be a Protestant! What will become of our Church?

When the time comes for change it will come; trust God on this one rather than trying to force His hand.


Many prayers,
Father Deacon Paul

Mary,

"It is appalling, sickening, terrifying and enraging to hear our minor clergy droning on about the glories of the Byzantine Church while it stands naked to the bone in the eyes of most of our priests and lay faithful."

First, deacons are in major not minor orders. Second, I don't believe any of the deacons that post here have droned on about the glories of the Byzantine Church. We have tried to maintain some semblance of objectivity and reason during a time when many are allowing themselves to be ruled by emotion and passion. We are well aware of the faults and failings of our Church, probably more than most. But we are also aware of her beauty and worth. She is our bride whom we will not abandon.

Fr. Deacon Lance

"We are well aware of the faults and failings of our Church, probably more than most. But we are also aware of her beauty and worth. She is our bride whom we will not abandon."

If some of the Ruthenian Deacons are so enthralled with the Beauty of "our Church," then how can they call abandoning the Ruthenian Recension OK, or even invoke the phrase "semblance of objectivity?"

If a Deacon abandons the way he becomes one with his Bride his Bride would not be happy! Likewise when a Bishop, Priest, Deacon, or Layman abandons the way that he becomes one with the Bride of Christ, can the Church be happy? Or even claim to be an "unabandoned" by the Bishops and Clergy?

True. I was inaccurate.

Probably got caught up in my imagery of droning in a minor key.

It is rather like an ison, what I hear for the most part.

The only exceptional voice I hear, here, is that of Father Deacon Brown. Although I do think in his last two notes Father Deacon Paul has risen greatly in my estimation and I see a side of him that I had not known was there. I understand his position with respect to his own immediate concerns.

I do not think it was necessary for Father Deadon Paul to be so critical of others in order to make the point that he needed to make about his own role in the parish and Metropolia, however, nor is it necessary to deny the level to which this ship has sunk in a decade or so.

The hardheaded natal Ruthenians may be and may have been difficult folk. They came through difficult times in a difficult place to a difficult new world. God bless them. I do not think they should have been abandoned for their sins. I do not think they should be abandoned for their sins. I think they are being abandoned.

I don't think the master plan is working. The Phoenix is crippled and singed, charred and drooping. More than that it is financially busted. After all that came the RDL.

Mary

InCogNeat3's

"If some of the Ruthenian Deacons are so enthralled with the Beauty of "our Church," then how can they call abandoning the Ruthenian Recension OK, or even invoke the phrase "semblance of objectivity?"

I don't think abbreviations constitute the abandoning of a recension. However, I also believe it inevitable that an American Recension develop.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Fr. Dn.,

"American Recension", I'm glad you admit this point. That is exactly the intent of the hierarchy, to creat a new "American" Byzantine Catholic Recension and to get rid of any hint of ethnic "Ruthenian Recension" baggage and authentic chant.

Ungcsertezs