www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Revised Liturgy Poll

For those Byzantine Forum members who are still members of the Ruthenian Metropoplia and have been using the new Revised Divine Liturgy, how many are in favor and how many aren't in favor. Please respond with a "yes" or "no" short answer.

Ungcsertezs

No. It was not thought out with the impact on us, the followers. Pre-Change, everyone came to Liturgy, knowing what is going to happen, that in this life we trust one common thread, our Faith, and that it will never change.. and then it's slightly changed on us, just enough to make everything seem like you're a stranger in a strange land, BUT not enough for those who changed it to say, "it's just words." In the business world, you make a change like this and you lose customers.

I recently when to a Latin Rite Mass w/ my wifes family and to be honest, I felt the same strange feeling like "this isn't what I am supposed to be doing.."

Maybe time will heal? I don't know. But I do know if they change again during my life time, then I will feel our solid foundation is not as solid as I thought and will probably find a Roman Catholic Church.
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http://www.stmichaelstoledo.org

Can't really say yet. I was at part of the D/L yesterday for the first time since our priest implemented it several weeks ago. It wasn't all that different IN FORM from what we've been used to in Passaic, the only real change I noticed was the litany of oblation after the great entrance. The ending prayer seems a bit long for one little litany petition. Obviously, the wording continues to trip up people quite a bit. We've made some changes in the wording in the music that we use, but there is still stumbling. I was only there through the consecration, so I can't say anymore beyond that, though someone said that the communion prayer had changed as well. No one but the cantor sang the troparion and kontakion and prokimenon. They are very different.

Does this mean that my copy of "Menologion" (the programme which shows the Tropar and Kontak for the day) is no longer useful?

I don't like it. Hope it changes soon...

Don't hold your breath...

Ungcsertezs

Yes, as a cantor I'm in favor of the restoration. We have been using the new books since Cheesefare Sunday, with no revolt from the parishioners. However, I find I can no longer stomach the whole subject of the Revised Divine Liturgy in this Forum due to the extreme negativism.

'restoration'?

This is a restoration like North Korea is a 'Democratic Peoples Republic'.

It's all about labels and what you want them to mean isn't it?

Perhaps you could share with us for example when in our churches history we've had one verse antiphons? How is this restoration?

Monomakh

More uncharity during the Great Fast. A poll is created. A response is given. Putdowns and snide remarks are made because the response is not liked. The poll asked about the new translation, who was using it and if they were in favor. Some musically trained people feel the new music is a restoration. This poll has nothing to so with matins or rubrics. But it is plain to see that anyone with anything postivie to say about the new translation will be shouted down and belittled. And some continue to wonder why no one will listen to them? If the hierarchs read this forum it is no wonder they ignore the letters coming from its members. I read complaints about the Great Canon not being taken but it appears some who sought it out profitted little from it. For all their prostrations they remain unhumbled and while fasting from animal products consume their brothers and sisters.

Monomakh,

I haven't searched the archives yet. Does your own parish, If BCC, serve Matins? How many OCA parishes serve matins? How many ACROD parishes? The problem is more widespread than just the BCC.

As to on verses of the antiphons.....sigh.... I had hoped that there would be restoration of the full antiphons. Sadly in our church's history there has bee one verse of the antiphons for far too long. The last 100 years seems to be too far back in our church's history to find REGULARLY sung multiple verses of the antiphons. Yes maybe 1% of our parishes did sing all three antiphons with all three verses on a REGULAR basis.

Too often we here seem to be like the three blind men describing an elephant based upon the limited information we can gather by what we experience. To extrapolate our parish experience to all the Metropolia will always be incomplete. Some parishes celebrate a fuller cycle of liturgical services than do others. This seems more a function of the priests (and to some small extent the laity) in the individual parishes. Would that our Bishops mandate better consistency in the celebration of Liturgies throughout our Eparchies!!! {oh wait, they did and many rebelled!!!}

To call this restoration akin to the "Democratic People's Republic" of North Korea is somewhat misleading and extreme. Perhaps you could cite when in our history as a church the people (laity) have ever had so much say in how the liturgy is celebrated?

This, my unworthy $.0002 opinion,

Steve

Dear Father Deacon Lance,

You complain of lack of charity during the Great Fast, and then provide an example of such lack of charity.

Some people have certainly been hurt, and feel as though no one is listening to their pain. That pain could, in theory, be imaginary, but it remains traumatic, and there is no reason to be surprised that people who feel abused often respond with less than perfect etiquette. To respond to them in kind is unlikely to be helpful.

In the present situation of the Church in many countries (including both Ireland and the USA) a simple demand that people should obey the authority of the hierarchs is unlikely to succeed. I fervently hope that there is no need to explain the circumstances which have led to a reduction in the value of such an appeal to hierarchal authority.

So what to do? At the risk of repeating suggestions I've already made, it would be helpful to realize that those who are already voicing pain and objections are only the tip of the proverbial iceberg and that there is a need to present liturgical change in such a way as to enable people to "take ownership" of both the process and the result. In most places, this requires heroic patience. It also requires a willingness to consider the possibility that if the experts are advocating an innovation that significant number of the faithful do not want, it may be better to wait and to work to prepare the ground - without giving the impression that one regards the faithful as people who are ill-mannered, disrespectful and uneducated and who therefore are unable to recognize that some change is good for them.

The Byzantine-Ruthenian Metropolia in the USA is blessed with faithful who have acheived a higher level of education than at any previous time in the history of this particular Church. The challenge, therefore, is to respond to the educated laity in ways which will positively encourage the up-building of the Church.

Fr. Serge

Fr. Serge,

It is not uncharitable to reprimand those who deserve it. As clergy and a moderator here it is my job. I have let quite a bit go but I will do so no longer. Many have been warned many times, by the Admin John, Fr, Anthony, myself, and other moderators.

That people have hurt feelings does not give them the right to belittle other posters they disagree with or deride our hierarchs.

And since you are across the ocean and not in the middle of it you will understand if I think your take on this situation is innaccurate. Those vehemently opposed to the new translation are extremely vocal but also in the minority. The greater part of the faithful are unconcerned, while others are worried because of what they hear from those opposed. But I suspect when they actually see and hear the Liturgy they are going to wonder what all the fuss was about. So it was for those of us at the deacon's retreat.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear Father Deacon,

It is entirely possible that my geographic distance from the battlefield is affecting my take on the fray.

Anyone who would like to know what is at issue is advised to obtain a complete, accurate translation of the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom, and then attend the revised version - or, by turnabout, to obtain a copy of the revised version and then attend a complete celebration. That ought to work.

[Complete and accurate English translations are not hard to find - I might suggest Christ With Us, from the Ukrainian Catholics, the OCA text - from the OCA, obviously - or others on the market.]

Fr. Serge

Thank You Fr Serge! I think this is sound advice! I will heed your suggestion!

Say to GOD: How awesome are Your deeds! So great is Your power that Your enemies cringe before You.

jody

Fr. Serge offers sound advice, although, I question whether it is fair to suggest attending an OCA Liturgy for comparison purposes. Even an unabbreviated Ruthenian Recension Liturgy is still shorter than a Russian Recension Liturgy because of the latter's many accretions which are not found in the former, not through defect or abbreviation but simply because it is more ancient, not to mention local traditions like zapivka. Oddly enough after comparing texts those of the Melkite and Greek Recensions appear closer to the Ruthenian than the Russian even though these are in the Slavonic family.

Fr. Deacon Lance