www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Orthodox in Communion with Rome -- trying again

Tobit

You'll have to forgive me if I seem to view the Jesuits harshly, but given how far the order in general has fallen from its mission and traditions into the vices of modernism and heterodoxy, and how a great many of their number seem to be more concerned with being glorified social workers than spiritual leaders, can you really blame me. And I'm not alone in my opinion as seen from above posts. The Jesuits were great servants of the Church up until the mid-20th century, but they have been betrayed by their successors of the last 50 years. I pray for the day when the order is cleansed of its sickness as I do all the other orders so afflicted (Assissi I'm looking in your direction).

Dear Tobit,

FYI, some of my best friends are Jesuits!

And the "Spiritual Exercises of St Ignatius" have been translated into Greek by St Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain and are, as I understand, today used on Mt Athos.

But there is no reason for Jesuit opposition to Savonarola today. If the traditional Jesuits want to defend all the medieval popes and cloak them all in the same halo for the sake of defending absolute papal obedience - that is both ahistorical and unnecessary.

Alex

Dear Tobit,

FYI, some of my best friends are Jesuits!

And the "Spiritual Exercises of St Ignatius" have been translated into Greek by St Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain and are, as I understand, today used on Mt Athos.

But there is no reason for Jesuit opposition to Savonarola today. If the traditional Jesuits want to defend all the medieval popes and cloak them all in the same halo for the sake of defending absolute papal obedience - that is both ahistorical and unnecessary.

Alex

I believe that was Unseen Warfare by Lorenzo Scupoli.

Tobit: I don't want my statements to be misunderstood. There is a great degree of friendly and loving rivalry between religious orders, but it doesn't necessarily rise to the level of bitterness. I myself have great love for the Jesuit Order in general, and their contributions to the Faith are unquestionable. Sure, they've erred in many ways, and recently the order has seemed in general to be lax theologically, but this has not always been the case, and shouldn't paint the Jesuit Order in black (sorry, couldn't resist!)

My statements were merely reflecting the friendly rivalry that does exist between Dominicans and Jesuits. I hope no offense was taken, and I apologize if my intentions weren't clear and I did hurt you.

Peace and God bless!

I can settle the debate:

The Franciscans were formed to deal with poverty.

The Dominicans were formed to deal with the Albigensians.

The Jesuits were formed to deal with the Protestants.

Out of the three, which order did it's job.

The Dominicans take care of business! There are no more Albigensians, while the poor and the Protestants remain!

As a historian of the western expansion of the United States in the 19th century, I also wanted to add that without the Jesuits there would have been very few Catholic Churches west of the Mississippi.

The missionary work of the Jesuits was exemplary and many of them (I am convinced) who labored in the American frontier were/are true saints of God.

I live in an area that was/is rich in Jesuit missionary activity, that and the Congregation of the Mission (Vincentians.) Thanks be to Our God for the Missionaries who risk life and limb (literally, read about Sts. Isaac Jogues and Jean Brebeuf) to spread the Gospel!

From Semper Op [disputations.blogspot.com]:

Will of Mysterium Crucis is looking [mysteriumcrucis.blogspot.com] for "a website dedicated to explaining all of the different orders (Jesuit, Dominican, Franciscan, Carmelite, etc.) ... a solid comparative overview."

I find that jokes are more helpful than solid overviews in understanding the differences. In keeping with my personal motto of semper opifer, I offer this old chestnut:

During a Eucharistic Congress, a number of priests from different orders are gathered in a church for Vespers. While they are praying, a fuse blows and all the lights go out.

The Benedictines continue praying from memory, without missing a beat.

The Jesuits begin to discuss whether the blown fuse means they are dispensed from the obligation to pray Vespers.

The Franciscans compose a song of praise for God's gift of darkness.

The Dominicans revisit their ongoing debate on light as a signification of the transmission of divine knowledge.

The Carmelites fall into silence and slow, steady breathing.

The parish priest, who is hosting the others, goes to the basement and replaces the fuse.

During a Eucharistic Congress, a number of priests from different orders are gathered in a church for Vespers. While they are praying, a fuse blows and all the lights go out.

The Benedictines continue praying from memory, without missing a beat.

The Jesuits begin to discuss whether the blown fuse means they are dispensed from the obligation to pray Vespers.

The Franciscans compose a song of praise for God's gift of darkness.

The Dominicans revisit their ongoing debate on light as a signification of the transmission of divine knowledge.

The Carmelites fall into silence and slow, steady breathing.

The parish priest, who is hosting the others, goes to the basement and replaces the fuse.

I can picture that!

[i]Dear Orthodox Pyrohy,

Now that is funny!

God Bless,

Zenovia[/i]

Dear Friends,

Very funny!

In fact, the Benedictines praying from memory in the darkness holds a great kernel of truth as to how the services developed over time!

The early morning and late night services have the least variable portions - to facilitate memorization so that books need not be used during their praying in the darkness as candles were expensive.

Fr. Robert Taft SJ visited a Coptic monastery and saw how the various Coptic Hours were prayed from memory as well.

He also saw how the abbot would go among the monks and gently "punch" this or that monk to indicate which of the usual 12 psalms (they pray 12 psalms for each Hour - and sometimes more) that particular monk would be responsible for.

They then prayed the psalms in silence and from memory.

The lack of light also seems to be at the root of the practice in Egypt to memorize all 150 psalms and a book of the Gospels.

Alex

Dearest Zenovia,

You are brilliant indeed!

The Muslims also took the practice of using prayer beads from the Christians and, in fact, the arrangement of the numbers of their tasbih indicates a strong Christian Trinitarian focus - 33 beads x 3!

Further evidence to indicate that the Muslims borrowed this practice as well from Christians is the fact that certain Muslim sects, such as the Wahhabists, make it a point to count on their fingers ONLY as they say using prayer beads is an unacceptable borrowing from Christianity!

When I had prepared a press release for politicians to congratulate their Muslim constituents for a Muslim holy-day, I included a reference to the Muslim prayer beads.

Well, someone called me up and gave me some Serious Haughty Interjective Talking about daring to mention that Christian practice!

When a friend who is a Saudi heard about this, he shook his head and said, "Those poor, misguided people!"

Once, while in Greece, I saw some Muslim prayer beads being sold as worry beads . . . beware of Greeks . . . bearing gifts of course!

Alex