www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology "spiritual but not religious"

I think something of the "distance from God" concept I mentioned in an earlier post applies to those who are unchurched. St. Paul seems to say in Romans that at the judgement, those who lived without the law may be vindicated or "excused" by their conscience if they lived by the precepts of the law as it was written in their hearts. And Roman Catholic (and I dare say Orthodoxy as well) recognizes that those who are outside the church may also be recipiants of grace in a manner known only to God. While it is true that faith in Christ is essential, such faith may not be self conscious and may simply be incipiant. When we approach people who are "spiritual" but not "religious" let us remember that "true religion and undefiled is visiting the widows and orphans in their affliction." DO these people do this? I don't think it's very helpful to do as certain protestant groups do and tell people they are going to hell if they dont "believe in Jesus" in order to coerce a conversion. Rather we should encourage people to continue in doing good and indicate through charity that doing good is best and most ultimately fulfilled thorugh self conscious committment to Christ and worship of the Holy Trinity. The unchurched are NOT nearly as responsible for believing orthodox doctrine and dogma as the baptized. They are "spiritual gentiles" while we are "spiritual jews". To us have been given the oracles of God.

Some theologians have speculated that the church is actually the extraordinary means of salvation. While I do not think this is good doctrine for a number of reasons, it does carry a grain of truth. I suspect, in the end that many unchurched folks will be welcomed into the mansions of the just. Let us remember that sin is deception and it was through deception that Eve fell into sin. Satan's methods may change over the centuries (he no longer appears as a talking serpent) but his central purpose remains unchanged: to deceive the whole world. It is common knowledge that the Church believes there are degrees of sin, even if we don't all agree on what those are. And that those who are more knowledgable are more responsible. This is where the "distance from God" concept comes into play. Those of us who are in the Church are more responsible before God because we have been given so much. Those outside the Church, are not as responsible because they dont have access to what we do. The farther one retreats from Christian society and culture one finds people who are so profoundly ignorant of the Christian faith that they likely cannot be held accountable for it at all. In such cases we have to simply ask, do they believe there is a Deity and is there truth to be found in their way of worship? Many tribal groups maintain still some of the primordial tradition that came from Adam. Corrupted over time, yes, but some remains intact. IF they are faithful to what they know then they can be saved. It's a sad position to be in to believe that one must come to a self conscious faith in Christ to be saved. Tens of thousands die every day who have not such faith and one can only assume, if one holds that position, that all of those souls are in hell. I think we will be delighted to see what God counts as good on judgement day in regards to the unchurched. And we may be equally dismayed at what counts for evil for the Churched. Judgment begins with the House of God.

Jason

Amen Jason.
You mention a good point about some being so distanced from God that they're hardly responsible. That's probably why we are charged with praying for the whole world; to help bring everyone to God.

Jason, your dream reminds of CS Lewis' book, "The Great Divorce." If I recall correctly, the plot of the story revolves around people who take a bus ride either to heaven or hell, and it turns out that heaven is a supremely uncomfortable place for a great number of folks. They actually prefer hell, where they can make their own self centered choices.
He powerfully presents hell as a place where there is an ever-increasing distance between oneself and others, so that the predominant pain is one of isolation, as opposed to "weeping and gnashing of teeth" as a result of physical pain.

To me, imagery like this makes separation from God sound even more terrible than the "lake of fire" imagery. It also shows God as a rational being, as opposed to one who metes out cruel and unusual punishment. I find things like this edifying, because we while we cannot imagine ourselves letting someone burn in hell forever, we certainly can understand that people are constantly establishing their future through present choices.

Dear Jason,

I think when one accepts Jesus as their Lord and Saviour, they have recognized themselves as sinners in need of repentance. By realizing they are sinners, their heart opens up to God's Grace, thereby enabling them to attain the holiness required to enter a state of unity with God.



I recently read somewhere that St. John Chrysostom said that of those he was speaking to, only ten are saved. Now that's pretty harsh considering that he was probably speaking to thousands, so I thought of it for a while. Yes he was probably right! But when they are ready to die, how many will there be then? Probably hundreds!

The truth is that God will bring circumstances around so that each and every person will have a chance to open their heart to God's Grace and enlightenment. Therefore it is not God that is hindering them, but we are hindering ourselves from being able to absorb that which God gives freely to all. The question then becomes, if a person has not opened their heart to receive that which will lead them to a higher state before death, will they be able to open their heart after their death?

Mother Angelika once said that heaven would be painful for those that are not prepared for it. That is because their heart and soul is not prepared for it. I also read the same thing by Orthodox theologians. Orthodox theology also says that there is constant movement of souls from light to greater light. That the previous light becomes darkness in comparison to the greater light they are experiencing.

God Bless,

Zenovia

That is very true.+

-- John

AMEN!

Zenovia,

Forgive me, but I couldn't tell if you were agreeing or disagreeing. Regardless, what you wrote could not be more true. Many Christians throughout the ages have believed that the missionary mandate of Christ is based on the notion that if they don't take the Gospel to those who have never heard, those pitiful people have no chance at salvation. Glory to God that He does indeed "enlighten every man that comes into the world!" And provides the means of salvation even to those who have not or cannot hear the word of the Church.

Jason