www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy How many have left?

Does anyone have any quesses as to how many people have left the Church over the New Divine Liturgy?

I have no idea how many have already left, but you can count me in if the New DL is not retracted. We have decided to stay and fight for a time, but we cannot remain very long.

Now I feel an urgency to be more proactive before I am "driven" from my Church.

I am not much of an activist, but is there any more we can do? I am thinking a group of people living in the Pittsburgh area could go to the Cathedral and pray together (in silence) and maybe drop a charitable letter off for the Archbishop in person. If you don't live in the Pittsburgh area, go to your Church pray and send a personal letter to the Archbishop. Is there more we can do?

I want to remain at my Church; I want my future children (GOD willing) to be baptized in the Ruthenian Church. I want my children to be married (GOD willing) in the Ruthenian Church. My heart is broken, and I hope and pray something happens quickly. Otherwise, we will be searching for a new home.

We have resigned ourselves to GOD'S will. It is NOT our wish to leave our home, but if we have NO choice then we will go. If the retraction doesn't occur, then we will be on our own "Fight into Egypt".

Before the revisionists fuss much about my fussing, let me make some clarifications:

I do not mean that any person is Herod. What we are fleeing from is feminism, modernist and secular agenda. We believe these agendas are poison to our children's souls (and to our own souls). As parents, we are responsible to remain faithful to our duties. Rearing our children in the fear of the Lord is our aim. We will take flight when we believe that is our mission.

Unless someone convinces me how these changes are NOT conforming to modernism (and, etc.), I cannot subject my children to what I understand as modernism�.This is the most disturbing part for me. If these changes are guided by the Holy Spirit, then why doesn't a revisionist explain the changes in terms of the faith? Why cant the revisionist inspire me and illuminate me? Why cant the revisionist explain why/how these changes are organic development in the DL? Why cant some explain the necessity for the change?

I offer a simple plea; please explain the necessity for inclusive language. What is the motive? How do you think the Church benefits by such changes? Please give me something to contemplate. I will pray for you.

May GOD strengthen all of us at this difficult time!

"How long the conflict between good and evil will last we do not know; how long we will walk down the road bemoaning persecutions and crucifixions before GOD makes His presence known to us we do not know; how long we will seek the living among the dead, as did Magdalene, we do not know; how long we will crouch in fear behind closed doors before the Light of the World breaks through with "Peace be unto you," we do not know.
There is only one thing we do know, and that is that we have already won - only the news has not yet leaked out!" Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen, Cross-Ways

God bless you corsair. I feel exactly the way you do. I will stay and fight for a period of time, but if need be, I will take my family elsewhere. You will not receive a proper explanation for the use of inclusive language. I have spoken with many clergy and they are not proponents of inclusive language. There is no justification. The solution is a retraction. A terrible mistake has been made. The language of the world has infected the Liturgy like a resistent bacteria. We need a good antibiotic--and it is called "retraction."

I will be praying with you.

The most wretched of all sinners,
Recluse

Dear Corsair and Recluse,

May God bless you; you are both in my prayers.

Is inclusive language the "make or break" issue for both of you in the revised DL, then?

Yours in Christ,
Jeff

Ditto to Recluse & Corsair. My family of four anxiously awaits, hoping there will be a retraction. Sadly, my husband is a cantor with a music degree -- and he's probably one of the youngest in the Eparchy. We want to continue our Red Book Divine Liturgy, minus the inclusive language. We can get that at a local OCA parish -- we've already checked.

My family of 11 anxiously awaits too!

Forgive me for asking, I don't have a dog in this fight, but I am wondering about the talk of leaving if the new Liturgy becomes mandatory for the BCA.

When people talk about leaving, is it from the Catholic Church to the Orthodox Church (OCA, ACROD, ROCOR, GOA)?

Is it from the BCA to the UGCC, the Melkites, the RCC, the Romanians, Russian Catholics?

If the Liturgy was the same as you know it but the tones were different in a non-BCA Catholic parish is that still too much of a difference? Are you attatched to the Rusyn culture or could you go to a different Church with different traditions?

Thanks for humoring me.

God Bless You,

Dr. Eric

I dont think your shepherds will retract. One byzcath shepherd wrote --- "Let�s not let disagreement on words or rubrics weaken our unity." I read it on the net (Spero news) by a bishop John KudrikThere doesn't seem to be any possbility of retraction. My byzcath friends are thinking of the OCEA they think it was their shepherds who took the first shot at weakening their congregations. The rules seem to be set up to work against honest dialog.

Eddie

Presumably, those who might address these questions do not have in mind becoming atheists, Confucianists, or whatever. It resolves down to two paths:

a) join a parish (or start one, if need be) of a Greek-Catholic jurisdiction which does not intend to adopt the revised Liturgy; or

b) join an Eastern Orthodox parish.


To take these in reverse order: one is justified in leaving the Catholic Church and joining the Eastern Orthodox Church if, and only if, one is honestly convinced that this is the Will of God. In that event, Godspeed. Otherwise, one would suggest to the relevant Orthodox priest to encourage long, hard and serious consideration (just as one would advise a Greek-Catholic priest to be in no hurry to receive people from Eastern Orthodoxy for any reason other than an honest belief that this is the Will of God).

That leaves the first alternative - finding a congenial Greek-Catholic parish of another jurisdiction where there is no threat of the revised Liturgy suddenly appearing, or starting such a parish if there is not already one. Spiritually, it would be very difficult to defend the idea that an American Greek-Catholic living in America does not have the right to join and attend the Greek-Catholic parish of his choice - particularly since long before the current controversy broke out one could easily find plenty of examples of parishioners crossing ethnic and pseudo-ehtnic lines for any number of reasons, and nobody caused them much trouble.

In most Greek-Catholic parishes, one can already find the Divine Liturgy in English (parishes where this is not yet the case are usually Ukrainian, and Patriarch Lubomyr has explicitly directed the US Ukrainian clergy to cater for the needs of English-language faithful, and other linguistic groups for that matter, so a courteous request to the local Ukrainian Greek-Catholic pastor or bishop should not meet with a refusal, especially if the propsective parishioners are able to be of positive help).

Setting up a new parish may be more difficult, both for the prospective parishioners themselves - one needs to have a sufficient base of people willing to commit themselves to what is, let's face it, a demanding endeavor, and one needs to convince the local bishop whose flock one desires to join that the new parish will be an asset, not a liability. This takes time. My advice would be to start small, with a Greek-Catholic society to explore the possibilities and meet together regularly for prayer, and continue to implore Almighty God to give direction.

Then, of course, there is the option of staying put - this is my parish, my parents' parish, my grandparents' parish; I go to Church, I give money, and this is what I require from that parish. Over time, that approach is often effective, believe it or not. Again, organizing a society (which restricts its activity to godly forms of behavior, including prayer) is an excellent idea.

So there are serious possibilities. We are all answerable to God and the Church, and we all have consciences. The man who truly believes is not in a hurry.

Fr. Serge

Dear Reverend. THe money factor is a surefire way to make the point without leaving a congregation one has family ties and history. passing the collection plate (and only passing it along) is much easier for the nerves than saying goodbye to fellow believers. Most church shepherds have a good doplar radar for the money. Eddie

Is there anyone considering going to an "Ecclesia Dei" Indult Tridentine Latin Mass? That would be the opposite of what many Roman Catholic trads did when the Novus Ordo was forced upon them and they started attending Divine Liturgy in your Church.

I have recently had to leave my Ruthenian Greek Catholic Parish for a very serious reason other than the RDL. If this "situation" did not happen I probably would have had to leave my Parish over the RDL anyway.

My other Parish options are quite perplexing. I can choose and this my opinion:

A.) Another Ruthenian Parish that will soon be celebrating the RDL. This Parish hosts the "Roman Catholic" Novus Ordo one weekday per week, has 45 minute Saturday evening Liturgy and Sunday morning Liturgy both served by the same Priest. Yes, this Parish uses Pre-Cuts and No they do not have Vespers or Matins. Therefore my Liturgy choice with this Parish will soon be the RDL Saturday late afternoon/early evening or the second Liturgy by the same Priest, same Community, on the same Liturgical day (Sunday) etc. This Church also has a layman that vests as a Sub Deacon and walks through the Royal Doors and gives Communion.

B.) A UGCC Parish that has an English "Low Mass" and then a modern Ukranian Liturgy (which the Babas still call Mass). Both Liturgies are served by the same Priest, same Liturgical day, etc. Yes Pre-Cuts are used, No they do not have Vespers or Matins. I prefer the Ukranian to the English, however it is the second Liturgy on the same day etc. I would really prefer one mostly Church Slavonic Liturgy with some English and readings in multiple languages. However, this is not an option.

C.) Another UGCC Parish just like the last only it has a married Ukranian Priest rather than a Monsignor. Also this Parish has Altar boys holding Patens. Just walk up and grab Communion with your fingers if you do not want both species, etc.

D.) Join a Roman Catholic Parish with Altar Girls, Post Communion jokes, a Neo Iconoclast building, Protestant-style Liturgy with valid Sacraments, etc.

E.) Become a member of an Orthodox Jurisdiction

F.) Join a "Roman Catholic" Tridentine Mass Parish that is in open Schism with the Pope of Rome. (I have never visited this type of Church, I have only heard of it.)

G.) Seek out the One Tridentine Mass in the whole Diocese that is followed by "guitar Mass" with Altar Girls. (I have yet to do this, however I have heard about it from some people that I met at a UGCC Church. They attended the Diocesan Tridentine Mass for awhile then left for the UGCC because they thought that it was intellectually and Theologically dishonest to have a beautiful Tridentine Mass and then half an hour later have a "Rock Band Novus Ordo.")

H.) Start a Melkite Greek Catholic, Romanian Greek Catholic, or Ukranian Greek Catholic Parish. I do not think that this is very feasible. The Ukranian Bishop would probably tell me to just go to one of the other UGCC Churches, and my reply would probably be, "I can't They make a Farce of Byzantine Catholicism." Nearly all of the serious Eastern Christians have already left my Catholic Parish opting for Orthodox jurisdictions, so I would probably be alone in trying to start a Parish anyway.

Eddie,

I agree with you. In my gut, I don't think the retraction is going to happen. I pray and I know my Heavenly Father will provide the answer.

Dr. Eric,

I wish I had definite answers for you and for myself. I trust in GOD for the answer.

*****When people talk about leaving, is it from the Catholic Church to the Orthodox Church (OCA, ACROD, ROCOR, GOA)?

I have been told about a traditional parish in the ROCOR. This is a possibility.

-- I am asking here. I know the normal responses. Can anyone offer me a deeper insight? Why can�t I be in communion with Orthodoxy and the Papacy? I know that is an apparent contradiction, but is it really? Do I HAVE to make a choice between the two? Why do I? Is this an impossible position? I only have one life to live. I choose door number one AND door number two. Why cannot I have the head and the heart together in my lifetime? All things are possible with GOD. -- I am sincerely asking these questions, please sincere answers. -- Yes, I am an impossible person who demands much.

*****Is it from the BCA to the UGCC, the Melkites, the RCC, the Romanians, Russian Catholics?

This is a possibility.

*****If the Liturgy was the same as you know it but the tones were different in a non-BCA Catholic parish is that still too much of a difference?

I don't know yet.

*****Are you attached to the Rusyn culture or could you go to a different Church with different traditions?

I am not attached to Rusyn culture. I am attached to the Faith of my Fathers.

I wish this was going to be easy, but it will not be. As we live our life out on a limb, we are going to live by faith. What else do we have?.....I know things may not be perfect anywhere, but protecting my children is my burden. I don't have many definites, and those of you who do, count yourself blessed.

Fr. Serge,

Thank you so much for your words. I am not in a hurry and I am taking it slow. Thank you for reminding me.

Could you elaborate any more on the organizing a society idea? I like the idea of little pockets of "resistance". How do we find a spiritual father? I like the idea of having domestic churches guided as if they were religious communities. Do you have any info of other such societies that one could pattern after?

thanks,
jody

A wise man once said to me when I was praying about joining the Orthodox Church, "Make sure it is a spiritual move and not an intellectual move." I would have to say that is probably one of the best pieces of advice I have ever been given in my life so far.
So I pass it along to all of you contemplating leaving the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church.

Thanks Orthodox Pyrohy, I do know what you mean!

GOD works in mysterious ways....I would hope moving to the Orthodox Church would be one of intellect and spirit. I really don't like separating myself from my intellect! LOL....Come to think of it, isn't that what the revisionist expect me to do?

Still waiting for some words of wisdom from our revisionist brethren on the issue of inclusive language.