www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy How many have left?

Dear Jeff:

No, inclusive language is not the "make or break" issue. I look forward to having an explanation of inclusive language. This will open up the dialogue for further discussion, and I think it is a good starting point.

Thank you for your prayers! I will remember you in my prayers too!

Further to what I wrote last night:

1) it is almost never a good idea to join any Church for what might be called "negative reasons", and no worth-while Church will put up with people using them as a launch pad to attack another Church. If you think you should move, well, I certainly cannot discern that over the Internet, but I can tell you that you must be prepared to make the joys and sorrows of your new Church your joys and your sorrows.

2) will there be a retraction of this revised Liturgy? My crystal ball is out of order, but I venture to say that there is a high probability of such a retraction taking place. In 1986, the Eparchy of Preshov published a notorious Liturgikon in Slovak - it's so bad as to make the Pittsburgh revision look as though it came straight from Mount Athos. Protests piled into Rome from everywhere, and eventually the horror was indeed retracted an a new Slovak Liturgicon - a strict translation of the official Ruthenian Recension version - was published and promulgated. With time and persistence, there is good reason to expect the same thing to happen in this case.






Dear Jody,

Thank you; it's nice to be appreciated! You ask how to form a society. Peacefully, slowly, prayerfully, and with one of the aims being the study of the Byzantine liturgical tradition in all its aspects - which will give a good, sensible, and honest reason to organize visits here and there.

As for an organizational structure, I wouldn't worry too much. Unless you are planning to raise significant amounts of money (in which case be super-careful to avoid anything that could lead to suspicion of misappropriation of funds), there is no need to begin with a legal structure. Just look around, find congenial like-minded people, and make a beginning. Then look around some more and find other groups elsewhere with similar interests.

Fr. Serge

If I must move my family, it would most likely be the Orthodox Church. I would seriously consider the Melkite Catholic Church, but there is not a Church close to my home.
No, but I like it.

Chioce "E" seems like a no-brainer for you.

A wise man once said to me, that it is important to have truth working in love (as the Apostle tells us).

Truth without love is empty logic. Love without truth is sentimental and emotional. But truth working in love is the mind in the heart (nous)--and this is where we find peace. This is where we find Christ.

God bless you all!

Bless Father,

Oh how I pray that your words prove to be prophetic!


Kissing your right hand,
Recluse

This thread is so sad. Just when there is a real need for an Eastern revival so many devout people are considering leaving. I'm not blaming anyone, rather I'm quite sympathetic, but I just wish things were getting better instead of going downhill.

A word about "fighting". I remember watching an EWTN interview years ago and the moderator asked why the convert finally decided to make the jump from Anglicanism; I found his response quite interesting. He said after so many years of fighting to save the Anglican Church he was ready for the Catholic Church to save him. I'm not saying there is no use in fighting for the liturgy, but it does seem like something to consider.

Thank you Father Serge!

Please forgive me. When I said "pockets of resistance," I wasn't talking about resisting the New Divine Liturgy. I was talking about families/single people/couples having spiritual guide aiding them in the battle against modernism, feminism, etc. At least that is the thought when I read, "Again, organizing a society (which restricts its activity to godly forms of behavior, including prayer) is an excellent idea." In my mind, I was thinking, stay at your current church and then form a society where people/families could advance in holiness.

This idea of mine has been on my mind because I have seen many families (including my own) in need of such help with the battle against the world. We cannot change the world, but we can in our homes establish godly forms of behavior. Make our homes a sanctuary, and establishing a society where a group of people are advancing in this same way. In the West, we would say enthrone the Sacred Heart of Jesus in the home. I was thinking of a society with some practical advice for families. I am not one for forming groups, but I know many families who would love the idea.

I didn't understand what you suggesting. Sorry. I'm not sure I still understand. What would the society do practically? GO to various churches, pray together and.....

sorry for being so dense! sorry for not explaining myself in the first place!
jody

Dear Matt:

This is indeed sad. And, if the New Divine Liturgy is inspired by the Holy Spirit, I would hope that more discussion could take place as to how the changes are of benefit. I cannot imagine this would be hard to do. I make my plea to the revisionist to explain this to me. To start, I would like to read how the Kingdom is being advanced in inclusive language. On many threads, we read about the reasons not to use inclusive language. Now, I would like to read the opposite of those reasons.

And, I have been thinking that we need a thread of the best of posts (facts and not emotional posts) concerning the reasons not to use inclusive language. The revisionist could use this thread as a spring board to explain their perspective. This way any person can come to their own conclusions regarding this issue. Would this be a fair/reasonable adventure?

pray for me,
jody

Moving from one church to another should be an absolute last resort. It should also not be done out of rejection, but acceptance.

You may also find you trade your current troubles, controversies and conflicts simply for a set of new ones.

YES, I have already said that leaving my current church is NOT MY WISH! And yes, no place is going to be perfect. This is why I am not running out the door. I am sticking it out for now. I am not in a hurry. I am seeking insight as to the revision.

To be clear, I am making my pleas inorder to have reasonable answers to my questions. It may be I need an education. Then please educate me......I await the answers to the questions I have posed.

corsair, my comments were not directed at you personally. The convert experience is littered with pitfalls. Many I have seen myself. It's not a decision to be taken lightly (not that you are).

Yes. This is true. I have been in a discernment process for a couple years. My conscience has been trying to absorb various issues. For example: The Latin Church does not recognize Palamite theology yet the some of the Eastern Catholic Churches venerate St Gregory Palamas (almost in secret). The Eastern Catholic Churches seem to tip-toe around the doctrine of purgatory. Some Latin Catholic Churches refuse to give my infant Holy Communion while denying that it is canonical in the Eastern Catholic Church. I could go on and on--but there is this disconnect of everything Eastern when it comes to the Roman Catholic Church--and we are in communion with Rome! It sometimes seems that I must hold to my Eastern mindset while inwardly dissenting from some things Western. And at the same time, the Eastern Catholic Church has always struggled to find Her identity.

However, I continued to work things out through much prayer and study about the differences in Western vs Eastern theology.

Then came the RDL.

The inclusive language was like a punch in the stomach--maybe the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. I had only seen a feminized Creed in the protestant churches and now it is in the Ruthenian Catholic Church. I was speechless and horrified that my beloved Ruthenian Church surrendered to the political agenda of the world. I felt betrayed. Now I stand with corsair. I will stay and fight for a retraction. My letters have been mailed to Rome. But if there is no retraction I will continue to worship as an Eastern Christian in the Orthodox Catholic Church--a Church with Apostolic succession, sufficient grace, and valid sacraments. I understand that the OCA Church I attend will also have imperfections. But I will have peace of mind as I pray the Divine Liturgy.

If this should occur, I will always love and pray for my Easetrn Catholic brethren.

Peace and blessings,
Recluse

Hence why it is said to make the move for spiritual reasons and not intellectual reasons.

It is both, my friend--mind in the heart.