www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Women and Men: Created Equal

I am a strong advocate for equal rights for men and women--but that has absolutey nothing to do with the neutralization of the beautiful language of the Divine Liturgy.

I am glad you gave up your card!

Feminism is secular witchcraft. Witchcraft is ritual feminism.

If you doubt me, read Naomi Goldenberg: The Changing of the Gods.

I, too, am a strong advocate of men and women being equal in dignity and deserving of equal treatment under the law. And I agree that it has nothing whatever to do with the language of the liturgy.

I am also very glad I gave up my card. I gave it up right around the time I stopped being an atheist/secular humanist.

There is an extensive preview of this book, Changing of the Gods, online:

http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0807011118&id=YF4tONp6Q_cC&pg=PP1&lpg=PP1&ots=2RzeU_sSFL&dq=Naomi+Goldenberg:+The+Changing+of+the+Gods.&ie=ISO-8859-1&sig=d624d9DELYrWdoXm_D4dzHNtpX4#PPP1,M1

Now I am very confused. I have just discovered something on the internet and It seems to be in opposition to the new translation of the DL:

The following is written by Fr David Petras regarding the translation of Ambon prayers:

In 1972, I translated 38 of these prayers into English in order "to introduce these prayers in a modern language to those wishing a greater understanding of the Byzantine Liturgy." They received a very warm reception, and though the re-introduction of these prayers has remained controversial to a degree, my hope is that they have enriched rather than impoverished the Liturgy. Since then, there have been many requests for a new edition. I am happy to finally complete that task, adding translations of 32 new prayers (two prayers, the Common for Apostles and Meatfare Saturday-Funerals, are the same prayer with minor variations for the occasion), and also adding five prayers of original composition. I am especially grateful to my Bishop, Basil Schott, O.F.M., D.D., who has given permission to publish these translations and prayers (Protocol Number 17/00/S, November 21, 2000). I have focused on those prayers that are thematic for particular Feast days or occasions. Much more work remains to be done, and I append a list of 65 prayers yet untranslated, though many of these are not of the same quality, and some are only different versions of already translated prayers. Many of these also are generic prayers for any occasion, or for Sundays and Feast days in general, and I have given preference to those that are thematic.

In presenting these translations, I have tried to follow the guidelines used by the Intereparchial Liturgy Commission of the Pittsburgh Metropolia. The prayers are in contemporary English, and I feel strongly that understanding rather than effect should be the primary goal of any liturgical text. It is our worship that redeems the language and not the other way around. Many of the prayers mention the Emperor, which would be archaic in modern texts, so I have replaced these passages with prayers of the government. Following the Pittsburgh Metropolia, I have used "Mother of God," for "Theotokos" or "God-bearer," both words which present special problems. The Intereparchial Liturgy Commission also uses the title "Lover of Mankind," (philanthropos) for the very common title of God, not intending this in any exclusive sense, but only because of the difficulty of translating a particular divine characteristic in its proper sense. Personally, I would favor "Lover of Humankind," as an acceptable rendering, but there is still a reluctance in regard to the word "humankind," though it is not a neologism as some claim. I support the use of inclusive language according to the principles of the American Bishops, "the principle of fidelity to the Word of God and the principle of respect for the nature of the liturgical assembly."



Ambon Prayer for The Liturgy of St John Chrysostom, translater Fr David Petras, Eastern Christian Publications, 2000

What praise or what hymn or what thanksgiving can we return to you, O our God, [color:#CC0000]Lover of Mankind? For you have given freedom to us who were condemned to death and engulfed in sins. You have given us a share of the immortal and heavenly joy of the holy Body and Blood of your Christ. Therefore, we pray to you, do not let us be condemned, and keep us your servants, the deacons and the people here present in an honorable and holy life. Make us worthy to partake from your mystical altar until our last breath for the sanctification of our souls and bodies and for the observance of your commandments, that we may be deemed worthy of your heavenly kingdom with all those who are pleasing to you. Grant this through the prayers of the all-holy pure Mother of God and ever-virgin Mary and of all your saints, for you are holy and love mankind, and we give glory to you, to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever and forever.[/color]

Could Fr Petras possibly explain this?

Here is the article from whence that quotation comes:


http://cba.cua.edu/crit.cfm

Here is an article commenting on the article above:

http://www.adoremus.org/5-696-Whitehead.html

My second edition of the Ambon Prayers was made in 2000. The decision to use "Theotokos" and not to use "lover of mankind," was made after this.

Fr. David

Non-negotiable?

Is the horizontal inclusive language something that you do support fully? Sorry to put you on the spot but I honestly don't know you well enough to know, so I ask.

Mary

Hmmm? What changed?

I urge everyone to read these two articles posted my Im. There is much insight into the agenda of the American bishops and the radical feminists. It is eye-opening and very sad/disturbing.

The conference of bishops have made a dangerous assumption about the English language and we should not be deceived by this.

Sister Mary Collins OSB�radical feminist�believes that changing the language of worship will help effect change in the defective Catholic �belief system�. She believes that the male priesthood is a distortion. A google search will reveal many more of her radical feminist views.

Sr Mary Collins OSB was a one time president of The North American Academy of Liturgy. What is this organization and does it foster radical feminist agendas for the Catholic Church? Did the North American Academy of Liturgy have any influence over the revised Byzantine Catholic Liturgy?

I should hope that they have no jurisdiction over non Latin liturgies. I am still under the impression that Byzantines and other ECs have their own canon law and liturgy. I should hope that the Toth uprising would teach the Latins to mind their own business. I don't see how the radical feminists delude themselves into thinking that their idiocy will help the Latins, or anyone else for that matter. other communions in the midst of such goings on continue to see a mass exodus of their communicants exit such denominations for more conservative, and mauy I add, intelligent alternatives.
I myself see nothing wrong with an optional married Priesthood, as long as the Priest is called Father and not Mother, Parent, or anything else. I don't see, in the light that I have two years of koine Greek to my academic credit, to translate "anthropos" as person, individual, or any other inclusive term. there are word in the Greek NT such as "aner". which is male and "gunay" for female.
methinks that the nun behind these looney tune efforts should repent of her nunsense.
Much Love,
Jonn

Sometimes, I sit back and reflect on the "new translation" and I wonder why some people cannot see the insanity! I wonder how the Catholic Church could have possibly approved sweeping horizontal inclusive language in the year 2006-2007. I wonder if perhaps I am the one who is insane--but then I recall the following quote:

A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying: 'You are mad, you are not like us'.
Abba Anthony of Egypt