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Mary,
If Todd is incorrect perhaps you would be kind enough to provide some citations from Orthodox theologians who disagree with him. You've got a lot to choose from: Meyendorff, Ware, Lossky, etc. I am honestly curious about this. Todd often cites people who agree with him and I would certainly read some perspectives to the contrary.
Last edited by Matt; 03/29/07 11:37 AM.
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The energies pervade the economy, but they are eternal and uncreated, so they are not dependent upon creation.
Your statement if taken in a restrictive manner is heretical.
God bless,
Todd The energies come from that which is eternal and uncreated and themselves are uncreated. What do you mean by "pervade the economy"? Describe what is happening there with reference to Orthodox understanding of economy. Mary
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God's uncreated light and glory are not dependent upon the existence of the "created order" (i.e., the economy); instead, like all of His energies, they are uncreated and eternal, and so God is never without them. The Fathers often speak of the energies as the "things around God." See Time and Eternity in the Greek Fathers [ thomist.org] , by Dr. David Bradshaw (The Thomist, no. 70, 2006, pages 311-366).
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Mary,
If Todd is incorrect perhaps you would be kind enough to provide some citations from Orthodox theologians who disagree with him. You've got a lot to choose from: Meyendorff, Ware, Lossky, etc. I am honestly curious about this. Todd often cites people who agree with him and I would certainly read some perspectives to the contrary. Best I can do, during this busy time, is point you toward amazon.com and the work of Metropolitan John of Pergamon on the Orthodox concepts of being and person, and then compare them with those of Lossky. There is a text that shines some light on that particular comparison that begins to pick out the underlying assumptions of the modern interpretations of St. Maximos and St. Gregory. I will take the time soon to send you that reference. Mary
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God's uncreated light and glory are not dependent upon the existence of the "created order" (i.e., the economy); instead, like all of His energies, they are uncreated and eternal, and so God is never without them. The Fathers often speak of the energies as the "things around God." See Time and Eternity in the Greek Fathers [ thomist.org] , by Dr. David Bradshaw (The Thomist, no. 70, 2006, pages 311-366). Economy is not traditionally understood "i.e., as the created order", but as God's personal penetration of the created order in time, to distinguish it from the creative act itself. You seem to have lost that distinction somewhere along the line. Mary
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Mary,
There is an infinite gap (diastema) between uncreated and created essence, and the only thing that can transgress this boundary is God's uncreated energy. That is why I have said several times in this thread that man remains a creature in his essential nature, but that he becomes uncreated by participating in the uncreated energies. Now, he does not become uncreated because of something inherent within his own created nature, because that is impossible; instead, he becomes uncreated because the energies are uncreated. To say deny this is to posit the false idea that God Himself is mutable, i.e., that His uncreated energies become created when they are received by man in the process of theosis.
God bless,
Todd
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God's uncreated light and glory are not dependent upon the existence of the "created order" (i.e., the economy); instead, like all of His energies, they are uncreated and eternal, and so God is never without them. The Fathers often speak of the energies as the "things around God." See Time and Eternity in the Greek Fathers [ thomist.org] , by Dr. David Bradshaw (The Thomist, no. 70, 2006, pages 311-366). Economy is not traditionally understood "i.e., as the created order", but as God's personal penetration of the created order in time, to distinguish it from the creative act itself. You seem to have lost that distinction somewhere along the line. Mary The economy is creation, and economia involves how God exists in creation, but the energies are eternal, and so they are present within the immanent life of the Trinity. Thus, God's uncreated light and glory, and all of His energies, are eternal, they exist within and around the Tri-hypostatic Godhead, but they also flow out from God into creation. God bless, Todd
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Mary
The economy is creation, and economia involves how God exists in creation, but the energies are eternal, and so they are present within the immanent life of the Trinity. Thus, God's uncreated light and glory, and all of His energies, are eternal, they exist within and around the Tri-hypostatic Godhead, but they also flow out from God into creation.
God bless,
Todd Yes. I understand the distinction and it is also true that in English economia is sometimes rendered as the divine economy. I think you overstate the case, not in that the energies are uncreated, because by necessity they are, but in that they would necessarily "flow out" through all eternity. Rather the energies "flow out" in time. Otherwise you run the theological risk of positing a fourth person of the Holy Trinity. This is a risk that has been pretty well understood in the east for quite some time, which is why the kinds of elaborations that you interject into your interpretations of the ancient texts are not a part of universal Orthodox teaching, but are a speculative set of propositions that are consided by a few rather than the many. The idea that the energies are a divine accommodation to human creation is not something that I made up from my "western" mindset. Mary
Last edited by Elijahmaria; 03/29/07 12:14 PM.
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Mary
The economy is creation, and economia involves how God exists in creation, but the energies are eternal, and so they are present within the immanent life of the Trinity. Thus, God's uncreated light and glory, and all of His energies, are eternal, they exist within and around the Tri-hypostatic Godhead, but they also flow out from God into creation.
God bless,
Todd Yes. I understand the distinction and it is also true that in English economia is sometimes rendered as the divine economy. I think you overstate the case, not in that the energies are uncreated, because by necessity they are, but in that they would necessarily "flow out" through all eternity. Rather the energies "flow out" in time. [. . .] God's energies radiate out from the three divine persons from all eternity, but not into creation, because creation is not eternal. The energies are the "things around God," and so, unlike a Westerner, I refuse to limit God to His essence. It is a divine "procession" of sorts (i.e., a proodos), and is intimately bound up with the ekporeusis of the Holy Spirit from the Father alone; thus, to deny it is to deny the Spirit's eternal shining forth from the Father through the Son as energy, and I refuse to do that. God bless, Todd
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Mary
The economy is creation, and economia involves how God exists in creation, but the energies are eternal, and so they are present within the immanent life of the Trinity. Thus, God's uncreated light and glory, and all of His energies, are eternal, they exist within and around the Tri-hypostatic Godhead, but they also flow out from God into creation.
God bless,
Todd Yes. I understand the distinction and it is also true that in English economia is sometimes rendered as the divine economy. I think you overstate the case, not in that the energies are uncreated, because by necessity they are, but in that they would necessarily "flow out" through all eternity. Rather the energies "flow out" in time. [. . .] God's energies radiate out from the three divine persons from all eternity, but not into creation, because creation is not eternal. The energies are the "things around God," and so, unlike a Westerner, I refuse to limit God to His essence. God's glory shines out from all eternity, and this shining out of His glory is not dependent upon creation. It is a divine "procession" (i.e., a proodos) of sorts, and is intimately bound up with the ekporeusis of the Holy Spirit, to deny it is to deny the Spirit's eternal shing forth from the Father through the Son, and I refuse to do that. God bless, Todd I agree that this is all very interesting and there is nothing at all wrong with exploring such assertions, as long as they are not presented as any universal teaching of the Orthodox Church, but are expressed as an experimental or speculative exploration of those things which are considered to be true. Mary
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Mary,
I do not see you as an authority on the teaching of the Orthodox Church. The things I am saying are commonly said by the Eastern Fathers and by Orthodox theologians.
God bless,
Todd
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Mary,
I do not see you as an authority on the teaching of the Orthodox Church. The things I am saying are commonly said by the Eastern Fathers and by Orthodox theologians.
God bless,
Todd  Then you'll forgive me if I return the favor and say that I do not recognize you as an authority on Eastern Fathers and Orthodox theologians. Mary
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Mary,
If Todd is incorrect perhaps you would be kind enough to provide some citations from Orthodox theologians who disagree with him. You've got a lot to choose from: Meyendorff, Ware, Lossky, etc. I am honestly curious about this. Todd often cites people who agree with him and I would certainly read some perspectives to the contrary. This is with reference to a text by Aristotle Papanikolaou called Being with God that I mentioned earlier. It is the text that compares Lossky's theological emphasis on energies with Metropolitan John's theological emphasis on persons. I don't mean this to be exhaustive of course but representative with respect to what you are viewing here....Mary Zizioulas, however, with his emphasis on the personal/communal character of being, does not give the energies nearly so prominent a role in theosis. He argues that when the energies are made "the controlling theological concept" then it makes "superfluous, if not suspect, any logos of person" (this latter phrase from Zizioulas). Papanikolaou summarizes Zizioulas's point:
First, he "emphatically affirms that an energy is never apersonal. The energies of God are communicated only through the persons of the Trinity. This emphasis on the personal character of energies is indicative of the primacy of an ontology of personhood and communion in Zizioulas's thought. Second, salvation is not described for Zizioulas as an increase in participation in the divine energies, but as the transformation of being into true personhood in the person of Christ. For Zizioulas, the essence/energies distinction is 'nothing else essentially, but a device created by the Greek Fathers to safeguard the absolute transcendence of God without alienating Him from the world.' The energies are God's actions in the world and are saving events. The ultimate saving event, though not excluding the divine energies, is not simply a matter of God's action, but a relational event of communion that constitutes human personhood as true personhood in the image of Christ."
Last edited by Elijahmaria; 03/29/07 01:12 PM.
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Then you'll forgive me if I return the favor and say that I do not recognize you as an authority on Eastern Fathers and Orthodox theologians. Mary That's fine, but at least I am acquainted with the teaching of the Eastern Fathers and various Orthodox theologians (through reading them, and by talking to Orthodox friends), while you, as an Eastern Catholic not in communion with the Eastern Orthodox Church, have taken it upon yourself to speak for the Orthodox Church. God bless, Todd
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Yes, I have read Zizioulas' "Being and Communion," and although he does not give as great an emphasis to the energies as other Eastern Orthodox authors, he does not deny the dogma of the distinction between essence and energy.
God bless,
Todd
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