www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Joint Declaration - JPII and Bartholomew I about the Filioque?

Although I do not have time to give a detailed response to the errors present in the posts written by Ghosty and lm at the present moment, I will be doing so later today.

Suffice to say, the reduction of the distinction between God's various energies (i.e., His will, love, infinity, simplicity, foreknowledge, justice, mercy, etc.) to a mere epistemic or notional quality is contrary not only to the teaching of St. John Damascene, but to the teaching of the Cappadocian Fathers as well, of whom St. John is in some sense a theological disciple.

Moreover, St. Palamas affirms the reality of the distinction between the various energies in the Captia Physica, and in doing this he is simply following the teaching of St. Basil the Great.

Again, I will post a more detailed response later to the Western critics of the Eastern doctrine of the real distinction -- without a separation -- between the divine essence and the divine energies, while also affirming the real distinction between the many energies understood in relation to each other.

God bless,
Todd

Dear Alex,

The fact of the matter is that those who "use" Aquinas did not "use" St. Thomas accurately, which has been amply demonstrated by many theologians in the west in the 20th century. The fact of the matter is that many eastern scholars are beginning to see that the later Schoolmen were far more in tune with the principles of the Reformation and Enlightenment that they were with St. Thomas.

The fact of the matter is that there is nothing wrong with presenting texts that draw into question some of Todd's interpretations of the teaching on essence and energies.

There is at least one fairly heavy hitter in Orthodox theological circles who does not agree with Todd Kaster's extended interpretations of the meaning of essence and energies.

If I have to choose between giving the weight of the discussion to Metropolitan John or Todd Kaster's, you might be able to guess which one I would choose. Even Lossky is not saying quite what Todd has him saying but that is for another discussion. So we all have a right to talk about what we do know, just as does Todd. We even have a right to express an opinion, just as does Todd.


Also, the continuing implied threat, in these kinds of comments of your's which have appeared several time in this discussion thread, is absolutely inappropriate in any and all discussions that are charitable and focusing on substance and not personalities.

This is one of the best open discussions of this sort to date on this Forum, and all you do is try to squelch any opposition to Todd. Well the opposition is not to Todd the person, but to his ideas which are already being called into questions by already credentialed Orthodox scholars and monastics, who also write quite favorably about Aquinas, regardless of the differences. At least the differences that the Orthodox scholars recognize in St. Thomas are really St. Thomas's ideas!!

I will be submitting your post here for review. I think you need to stop intefering here unless you can produce textual evidence that those who disagree with Todd are doing so falsely.

Mary

Mary,

The funny thing about text that you quoted yesterday from Dr. Papanikolaou's book, which referred to Metropolitan John Zizioulas' position on the divine energies, a doctrine that the Metropolitan affirms as an article of the Orthodox faith, is that within a section of the footnotes Dr. Papanikolaou admits that Metropolitan John's views are unique, i.e., they are an innovation, and they are not held by other Orthodox theologians. Then Dr. Papanikolaou goes on to list some of the scholars that disagree with Metropolitan Zizioulas on this issue, and here are a few of the theologians he mentioned in his dissertation (and book): Paul Endokimov, Fr. Georges Florovsky, Georgios I. Mantzardis, Fr. John Meyendorff, Panayiotis Nellas, Norman Russell, Fr. John Romanides, Dumitru Staniloae, and Christos Yannaras, and -- of course -- to this list can be added Fr. George Papademetriou, Fr. Dan Rogich, Fr. Michael Azkoul, Philip Sherrard, Vladimir Lossky, Fr. Andrew Louth, Dr. Joost van Rossum, Constantine Tsirpanlis, Dr. David Bradshaw, Fr. George Maloney, and the list goes on. So, you go ahead and follow Metropolitan John (who I also follow to a certain degree, because I like various aspects of his theology), while I will follow the vast majority of Orthodox theologians, and embrace the fullness of the Orthodox faith.

God bless,
Todd

P.S. - Dr. Papanikolaou's book, which is based upon his dissertation (I have read both and can attest to the fact that they are nearly identical), is simply a study and comparison of the theological positions of John Zizioulas and Vladimir Lossky, so it is not intended as a critique of the Orthodox dogma of energies.

Dear Todd,

All I am pointing out in my posts is that there is no one, hard and fast, agreement on some of the claims that you are making concerning essence and energies from any or all of the saints and scholars that you mention above.

I am not at all making a critique of the doctrine of essence and energies, and if you'd review my posts that would be evident. At least I hope it is evident to others in the discussion.

All of us who have taken issue with some of your statements have made it clear that we are not arguing against the teaching of essence and energies in its most fundamental Palamite formulation, so your continued efforts to lay some other agenda on us is getting a tad worn out.

Mary

Dr. Eric,

Ah, go read Camus' "The Myth of Sysiphus," and then come back to read the thread. Then the pleasure will be found in never getting to the end. Seriously though, I'm sure that many of us feel like Sysiphus when it comes to reunion talks. But, perhaps it is not the goal to be reached but rather the actual talking that counts

Joe

I see no need to submit any posts for review, since this thread -- in spite of a fundamental theological disagreement between East and West on the nature of grace -- has remained charitable.

God bless,
Todd

Yes, I understand what you are trying to do, and I think you are wrong. That of course is why I continue to post in this thread.



God bless,
Todd

P.S. - I just read one of your posts from yesterday (i.e., the one about not entering a Papal Church in three years), and thought I would congratulate you on your conversion to Holy Orthodoxy. Although I remain Eastern Catholic, I see the Eastern Orthodox as my brothers in faith, and so I wish you the best as you continue your spiritual journey within the Orthodox Church.

P.P.S. - Sorry, I went back and read your post again, and I misread it the first time. My apologies.

Todd,

I think that this thread is very educational for me. I appreciate the clarity of your thought. This is a very difficult subject for most of us to wrap our minds around. I don't know that I have much to contribute but I've been reading everyone's input and it is giving me much food for thought.

Joe

I enjoy Todd's posts as well.

Dear Mary,

You mean you are going to report me to the Administrator/Moderators?

You mean I might be banned from ever posting here again?

Just be careful not to force anyone to do something they might regret down the road!

My point is simply that you and others have not only told Todd that he is wrong etc.

You have also affirmed that Eastern theology is wrong as well.

Certainly, I would love to hear what the Forum Authorities say about that.

I threaten no one. I just try to defend Todd and the legitimate Byzantine theology he reflects in his thinking and writing.

And I also hope to put pay to the nonsensical perspectives with respect to Aquinas and Palamas that are being advanced here - perspectives that two RC professors of theology and two Orthodox priests have told me are likewise nonsensical and ones they are truly shocked Catholics would be promoting anywhere.

But since I've obviously offended you, I will go ahead and impose a "time out" on myself (it's just so annoying when moderators spring those things on you when you least expect it . . .) for until Pentecost.

Duly noted and I wish you all the best - although somehow I don't think you believe me . . . sniff . . .

A great Holy Week to everyone and a blessed Paschal season!

Alex the Penitent

I think that the conversation in this thread, in spite of the fact that it involves a major theological disagreement, has been cordial. It would be sad if it was closed.



Let the virtue of charity reign supreme,
Todd

Alex,

I do not think that you need to take a "time out." The present discussion is not about negating the truth through compromise. In other words, it is not about reaching some kind of an agreement that blends the two opposing traditions into one; instead, it is simply about understanding what the two sides teach about the nature of grace.

I was a Latin Catholic for 17 years, and I have my theological training from a Latin Catholic university, but now as an Eastern Christian I no longer hold to many of the theological positions I accepted only three years ago. My spiritual journey (like every other man's spiritual journey) will continue until I die (and even beyond death into eternity), and -- God willing -- I hope to remain faithful to what He has revealed to mankind through the incarnation of the Logos. With that in mind, I begin every day by reciting the following prayer in front of my icon of St. Gregory Palamas:

All I desire in life is to experience the gift of the uncreated Light of Tabor, because it alone will bring true fulfillment.

God bless,
Todd

I doubt that this post will be closed as long as we try to stay with the texts and continue to be cordial with one another.

I do not think that threats are cordial and so I have asked that there be a recommendation that the veiled and not so veiled threats and mischaracterizations on the part of one poster simply be curtailed so that we are not disturbed in what we do here that is of real substance.

I do believe that is reasonable and kind.

Mary

Dear Friends,

Thanks to Todd for sharing that beautiful prayer - I said I'm on a time-out so this fascinating thread may continue unabated.

Cheers,

Alex

I apologize if I have offended anyone at the Byzantine Forum by my posts. My intention in posting in this thread is simply to elucidate the doctrine of the uncreated energies as it has been set forth by the Orthodox Church (i.e., through the teachings of the Eastern Fathers and the conciliar tradition, including the so-called "Palamite" Councils of the 14th century, and the Synodikon of Orthodoxy).

God bless,
Todd