www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West The so-called Tridentine Latin Mass

In response to the opening question, would not the most accurate designation be, The Tridentine Recension of the Roman Rite?

Dear Friends,

Say His Holiness approves this - what will be the impact on "our separated Tridentine brethren?"

Alex

From Fr. Zuhlsdorf's blog



http://wdtprs.com/blog/

My hope is that it will help facilitate a rapid end to the separation.

My hunch is that some, despite the unsettled feelings of others, enjoy their relative independence from Rome's control - as well as, let's face it, their own feelings of superiority (more Catholic than the Pope).

Since I have a self imposed limit on discussing Latin/Roman issues here I will only say there is very much resistance to the Old Rite here in Los Angeles & many other places in the US, I doubt if many priests will stand up to request the privilege when their Bishop dis-approves the Old Rite.

Sadly, it will not be a quick addition as many think...

I see many asking if the present altar girls and EMHC's can participate in the Old Rite on many Catholic forums, a new frontier for those of modern thought...

james

Dear ebed melech,

With respect to that "relative independence from Rome's control" - where can the UGCC go to sign up for that?

Alex

An intriguing question: will the use of the 1962 Missal be restricted to Latin? Before Vatican II, the Roman Mass was available in a number of languages.

Fr. Serge

I would put a large sum of money on the fact that ICEL will not translate it.

Been saying for years: It's not about Latin! I think Latin is a red herring the liberals in charge use to scare people away - they know that ordinary Jack and Mary Catholic don't want go back to Latin.

As you've written in print, Father, the wonderful work of Anglo-Catholics, translating this Mass into the traditional idiom of Christianity in English, was and is there for the RCs' asking (so is the divine office: I have an Anglican Breviary as well as a Missal) but thanks to Modernism and reverse snobbery (Irish hatred of the English) they refuse it. They went in for ICEL junk instead.

I remember you wrote that some English-speaking RCs hoped Vatican II meant the old services (done liturgical-movement fashion with congregational participation and chant) but translated into lovely Anglicanised English.

A motu proprio would be a good start... I'll believe it when I see it.

Of course I also know one of the things you're referring to: the Roman Missal in Slovenia that was in Slavonic but IIRC in Glagolitic letters not Cyrillic or Latin (Glagolitic is what Cyrillic looks like to people who don't know Cyrillic).

I don't know when the Glagolitic Missal was last issued: I think it was a few decades before the 1962 one allowed by indult now. If that's so then effectively the Roman Mass is only in Latin for now. (Clear Creek uses the 1965 Missal by indult.)

What other languages was the altar Missal printed in?

Interesting that the pope saint who brought you the Roman Canon also has a Byzantine service (Presanctified) named after him, which could get confusing. I've seen some WRO call their version of the Roman Mass the Liturgy of St Gregory (the modified Book of Common Prayer they use is called the Rite or Liturgy of St Tikhon because it was his idea).

Young Fogey:

In one of our discussions (on another Board) a long while ago, was it you who pointed to us then that the Roman Canon, as used in the TLM and in the Novus Ordo (with slight modifications), is one of the oldest, if not the oldest, still in use in the various liturgies (East and West) of today?

I've posted that before so possibly.

The Roman Canon (Gregorian Canon) is probably older than the two Byzantine Rite anaphor�. The fact that it doesn't have an explicit descending epiklesis seems to suggest that (source: Stuart Koehl).

The Anaphora of SS. Addai and Mari used by the Assyrian (Nestorian) Church of what's now Iraq is the oldest one still in use (and interestingly, as handed down, has no institution narrative of 'This is my Body' and so on).

Yes, I now remember this is how you put it then, in response to the assertion that the two Byzantine Rite anaphorae were the "oldest!"

Thanks, again!

The very thought of an ICEL translation of the 1962 Missal sends ice cubs down my spine. I strongly suggest The English Missal, published by Knott (it may be out of print at the moment but that's easily remedied) - there's music to accompany it if one looks in the right places.

Languages in which the Roman Missal was published and used at one time or another: Church-Slavonic (as mentioned; it was last published in full, I think, in the nineteen-twienties and I've been trying for decades to obtain a copy), Greek, Armenian, Mandarin Chinese, Ge'ez, Syriac, possibly Persion - check Korolevsky.

I used to be able to read Glagolitic, but that was a LONG time ago.

The Ecclesia Dei indult stipulates that one may only celebrate the 1962 Mass in Latin (though there seems to be a bit of a vernacularist movement). At the very least, they could permit the reading of the Scriptural lessons in the vernacular.

There is a hand-missal for The English Missal, incidentally. When last I looked, it was remarkably inexpensive.

Fr. Serge

Here is a fine article on all things liturgical. Does this New Oxford movement continue?



And when and where Fr. Serge did you spend time in the Southwest?

Yes, you can say that. In the Roman Rite a recension is called a use, like the Sarum use in medi�val England.

Thank you, Father. I have a hand-missal of the English Missal. Here is its ordo [home.att.net] (without the Book of Common Prayer options) alongside the Latin.