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Dec 29th, 2019
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" I feel that the current Bishop RICHARD really doesn't care a lot about some of the mission or parishes in his Eparchy. I'm only stating that from what other people in the Eparchy have shared with me. They were frustrated with the lack of ambition to help missions or parishes with problems...and the lack of concern/care. Very sad. I'm just saying what I "FEEL" and do not have any ill feelings or disrespect to the Bishop at all." Bishop Richard was in the hospital for an extended time, only coming home recently. Perhaps you could join me in praying for his speedy recovery. He does care, and has specifically mentioned his concerns for the Wichita mission to me and others in the Eparchy in recent discussions. All churches, Catholic and Orthodox are having challenges with missions, clergy and personnel. Pray, pray and pray - and then pray some more. God quite regularly closes some doors for others to be open - sometimes even wider. Christ is Risen! DRLB
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With all due respect to Brother Spundas, I can't help but agree with some of Amado's points. Latins are Latins. Bi-ritualism is NOT a solution - it is only a band-aid approach to the Eastern Catholic clergy shortage. We should not rely on the Latin Church to fill in the clerical cracks in our vocations pipeline. A bishop's first obligation is to the flock under his care.
When I first read your note, my thought was "there are always two sides to the story." Not that I doubt the veracity of what you shared, Spundas, but clearly something was going on and there are other perspectives out there that might give a more complete picture than the one you provide.
Setting up a mission is hard work. I have coordinated an outreach before and it was an incredible amount of labor! God bless you for trying, but be careful not to lay the full blame on the clergy or the bishop.
As to personality quirks, I think you will find them in any jurisdiction. No Church can lay sole claim to Emotional Intelligence!
As to the quirky individual you mentioned, I would question some of how this mission was set up. Was there an official mission team?...some functioning leadership body that could help coordinate activities and address issues like the one you mentioned? It seems that the clear issue is an absence of leadership all around (lay and clerical). That may be the reason why you felt as if you were banging your head against the wall with your good work and apostolic effort to little or no effect.
I was not there, but that is what it sounds like to me.
In ICXC,
Gordo Hello, Yes, there are always two sides of every story. I myself WISH that I know what it is!!!  I have NO idea what was really going on. The priests refused to tell me why or tell me what happened.  There are two families (actually kind of three) were "kicked out" by the priests. I was not in touch with one of the families to know their story...but the other one did NOT know why they were "kicked out." They were in the same boat as I was in....we asked ourselves the same questions..."what happened" or "why"? We do not know. There were plenty of opportunities for that Melkite priest and the bi-ritual priest to approach me with any concern or whatever...I've run into them more than few times during Catholic Conferences, meetings, being at the "right place at the right time"...and they did NOT take the opportunity to talk to me at all...nor did they even try to apologize for what happened. They even have my personal, work and pager e-mail addresses...plus my phone numbers, my home addresses...that is simply no excuse at all. But anyway...you are right...Romans are Romans. But I'd say...priests are priests...very sad to say. The community itself did not drive others out...in fact they begged me to come back...and asked the other alienated families to come back. The community was very supportive to each other...very positive to each other...it's the PRIESTS that (bleep) it up! Just so you know where the community was like...very loving and supportive of each other...including me and the other alienated families. There were few selected individuals (of course who were Romans with a lot of influence) who turn their heads away or stuck their heads in a hole like an Ostrich...and chose to believe the priests are infallible. Like as if the priest's words hold TRUE. Sad to say. I was piping mad about that for a long time...but I've learned to let it go...and go where I'm accepted. I didn't bother to write a letter to Bishop RICHARD about what happened, for some reason, I had a strong feeling that he wouldn't care or respond in any way. So, I just "let it go" so that I could focus on my spiritual life that's found in the Orthodox Church. SPDundas Deaf Byzantine
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I hope and pray that Bishop RICHARD gets well soon. I know he has series of health concerns. Hope that he gains his strength back.
Perhaps it's best that Holy Apostles close down, since the damage has been done...it's not worth the burden to the Bishop...it's not worth beating a dead horse so to speak. (sigh)
May G-d comfort Bishop RICHARD and his health.
SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine
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I know Bishop Richard and I do know that he does care, but what do you expect him to do? Large parishes are closing -- a tiny mission really has no chance without a miracle and a lot of cash. Many older parishes are living off of their bank accounts just to keep the lights on. I believe that there is a new mission in Hawaii because enough Ukrainian Catholics have moved there and they are also wealthy enough to keep things afloat�
His predecessor, Bishop Michael, was transferred to Canada where he had to close over 30 parishes. What exactly can the Bishops do? Buy lotto tickets?
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spdundas,
I would like to thank you for your effort in founding Holy Apostles. Without this mission, I never would have known the Eastern Catholic Church existed.
I would also like to add my experience and add a positive light on this mission of which holds extreme significance to me personally.
A year ago, nearly to the day, I was brought into The Church through Holy Apostles Byzantine Catholic Mission. I received Baptism, Holy Chrismation, and for the first time Our Sacred Lord Jesus in the Most Holy Eucharist. This day will always be beyond words the most wonderful day of my life. I will never be able to repay the ability to live my life with the grace of the Holy Mysteries I am now able to receive. My husband and I were married a few weeks later, again in the Byzantine Rite through this mission. The beauty of it all is beyond compare.
My experience with the people of Holy Apostles has been wonderful. Everyone there has worked very hard, dedicating a lot of time and effort to keep it going. Before Holy Apostles, I had personally never experienced Christian Charity. The day of my reception into the church, I knew what it meant to have a Christian family - what Christian love was. This day meant everything to me. Receiving the Holy Mysteries meant everything to me, and I was afraid that I would not be able to keep composure during the reception of these Mysteries. I managed to make it though without tears (though with great difficulty). It was afterward, when everyone came to great us (my husband was chrismated and received first communion at this time also), giving us hugs, gifts that were far from expected, and hearing them sing "God Grant you Many Years" that I could no longer contain myself. I began to sob. Then and there I knew what the Body of Christ meant, what Christian Charity was, and what a spiritual family was.
Father Joe through his charity taught my husband and I our catechism. We both thought it to be really special to be thought directly from a priest in such a personal way. Father has dedicated his time to serving our mission, something he did not have to do. For that, I am very grateful.
This mission has not been fruitless in any means. Other than my husband and I becoming Catholics through this mission, there are people who have been brought back to the church after 30 years of neglecting confession, and Christ in the Eucharist. There are people who started attending regularly after our efforts at the Mid-West Catholic Family Conference. Regular attendance recently had begun to increase. New alter servers were being trained. Two people decided on vocations through this mission, one of which is in seminary, and the other was on his way. There was a couple that drove all the way from Tulsa, OK nearly every weekend - just to attend Divine Liturgy here. Another college student was driving down from Lawrence nearly weekly again to attend Divine Liturgy here. Both locations are about a three-hour drive to Wichita. If that does not show Fruitful effort, I don't know what does. I know that God was with us.
For now I ask everyone to please pray for our mission, as DIAK has so respectfully asked. We will not give up hope or faith.
Our Father, Who art in Heaven
Hallowed Be Thy Name
Thy Kingdom Come,
Thy will be done on earth as is in Heaven
Give us this day our daily bread,
And forgive us our trespasses
As we forgive those who have trespassed against us,
And lead us not into temptation
But deliver us from evil.
Christ is Risen! Indeed He is Risen!
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Why not just keep it going with vespers or reader's services until a full time priest could be found.
Last edited by AMM; 04/10/07 04:12 PM.
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Why not just keep it going with vespers or reader's services until a full time priest could be found. That is a great idea. Isn't that what the Antiochians and the OCA do? Gordo
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That's a possiblity. I will have to ask. Someone did mention that we could do reader's services.
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I don't know the exact criteria, but I think a mission could even be started in the homes of motivated lay people who wanted to hold reader's services. I do know missions have been started by Deacons coming from established parishes who will hold Vespers in a temporary location, but people will then have to go back to the established parish for other services until they are self sufficient.
Although certainly not ideal, I would presume a situation similar could come about, in this case for the other services people would have to go to a Latin Church. I would assume a periodic visit to an Orthodox Church would also be a possibility.
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6300 souls per Priest is a bit much, no doubt.
if anything good of this situation can be seen, it is the fact that despite the lack of a biritual Priest, the Latin Bishop has NOT suppressed the presence of EC activity in his diocese, he just dosen't have a Priest he can spare. another reason to pray for vocations to the Priesthood (regardless of "Rite"), and the religious life. I wish you well. I know all to well, here in Chattanooga, what it is like to not be able to get to DL, what it is like to not have any DL at all. my love and prayers.
Much Love,
Jonn
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Thank you for your support John.
My apologies also for the content of my original post with regard to the Latin Bishop. I realize we were fortunate to have our priest serve us, which he obviously could not have done without the support of the Bishop. Rumors were said that he wanted to see our mission go, but they are rumors. I am no better for continuing them on buy posting what I did. Please accept my humble apologies.
Many thanks to all for your ideas on how to keep the mission going. We will continue to pray for the mission and the souls of those who attended Divine Liturgy there. I am particually conserned for the people I mentioned before who quit going to Mass 30 years ago because of the lack of reverence they were seeing in the Mass. If you will please pray for them that no matter the outcome, they will continue on their faith journey and their faith be strenghtend by the Grace which they recieve in the Holy Eucharist, I would be very greatful.
Christ Is Risen!
Mary
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Mary of Egypt, a huge thanks to you all who grew HA from the ground up. Your hard work is appreciated. I just wish more people in this area knew of the Eastern Catholic Church. Seems like whenever I mentioned it to friends (Catholic) they looked at me weird and I had to give a speech to try and prove we could go there (same story elsewhere, for sure)
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Thank you for your support John.
My apologies also for the content of my original post with regard to the Latin Bishop. I realize we were fortunate to have our priest serve us, which he obviously could not have done without the support of the Bishop. Rumors were said that he wanted to see our mission go, but they are rumors. I am no better for continuing them on buy posting what I did. Please accept my humble apologies.
Many thanks to all for your ideas on how to keep the mission going. We will continue to pray for the mission and the souls of those who attended Divine Liturgy there. I am particually conserned for the people I mentioned before who quit going to Mass 30 years ago because of the lack of reverence they were seeing in the Mass. If you will please pray for them that no matter the outcome, they will continue on their faith journey and their faith be strenghtend by the Grace which they recieve in the Holy Eucharist, I would be very greatful.
Christ Is Risen!
Mary Hello, The "rumors" may be just it, "rumors," however, I do know for a fact that Bishop Jackels can care less about the HA mission. I've heard of this "rumor" since he became a bishop...probably before you were "converted." I personally have NO respect for Bishop Jackels. He has hurt a lot of families and people in the Diocese of Wichita far more than anyone would ever know in such a short amount of time he's a bishop. In fact, if everyone knows...they'd be shocked to the core and shout "un-axios." Too bad Wichita doesn't have Bishop Olmsted anymore, he is a WONDERFUL Roman Bishop. But apparently you're lamenting about the whole HA fall out...you don't see to hear what I said on the forum...15 Byzantines plus other 5 or so waiting for change of rite have left the community. HELLO!!! If all of these Byzantines and other stayed in the community, I have NO doubt that it would not have closed down...in fact...if the demands were higher...then priorities will change on the waiting list for a priest from Eparchy of St. Nicholas or HA may even last longer. Of course...it was these 15 Byzantines that brought in a lot of other people...including some converts. I can imagine that these folks plus myself would have doubled our efforts to get our community to grow...even before you would ever set a foot in Holy Apostles. I'm sorry that you're crying and all upset...but I'm NOT sorry. I know it sounds cruel or bitter but it's really not...but it all comes from people who are so apathetic and only concerned with only themselves that led to the fall of Holy Apostles. Fr. Tatro may be all wonderful and "ga-ga" but I only know him too well and I would veer far away from this man. I knew him before he was a priest. He scares me!!! He may be all sooo good for you and others only because he is desperate because he KNEW he drove the 15 Byzantines and others away...he KNEW that it was only matter of time that Holy Apostles falls away. All I can do is sit back and just watch it go because it was not I or the other 15 Byzantines that caused it...it was done by the the priests and the "new people" at Holy Apostles. By the way...you're so concerned about the people who came back to church after "30 years" sounds like some gruntled Romans who want to come to the Byzantine services because of "revernece"...that CONCERNS me even more that this person or people came back for that reason. There are Tridentine Masses that they can go to... For a while there were some Tridentine people that came to our Mission...and they try to Latinize it and try to cause bunch of problems...thank goodness they weren't welcome to our Mission because we don't stand for that. I've heard from several sources and people that Holy Apostles have SERIOUSLY been Latinized a great deal...even to the fact a couple who are TRULY Byzantine by birth LEFT the community because of this reason besides the bad treatment from Fr. Tatro. I'm not sorry that I'm not oh wah-wah agonizing crying over this whole thing...because it happened exactly the way it was going to happen because of the way it is now. I'm the most pro-active person that most people would ever know...I don't "talk the talk" but I take "action". I would have a done a lot if I was still there...but unfortunately for you and the Holy Apostles that I'm not. I've already had peace a long time ago to let Holy Apostles go and let myself become totally imersed in Orthodoxy which is far more stable and peaceful than these problems at Holy Apostles and the apathetic people. I wasn't going to let Holy Apostles Mission drag me down especially now it's falling. I think it's best for the thread to be closed, because I don't really see any point to talk about how to save Holy Apostles which is beyond repair...would need a Divine intervention to get it re-started. Also, it seems to be fruitless because you and others in the Holy Apostles have turned deaf and closed your hearts on the Founders of the community who have been hurt over and over and over with no one else but ourselves to care about. THAT is the Fruit of "Roman Apathy." SPDundas Deaf Byzantine
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The "rumors" may be just it, "rumors," however, I do know for a fact that Bishop Jackels can care less about the HA mission. I've heard of this "rumor" since he became a bishop...probably before you were "converted." I personally have NO respect for Bishop Jackels. He has hurt a lot of families and people in the Diocese of Wichita far more than anyone would ever know in such a short amount of time he's a bishop. In fact, if everyone knows...they'd be shocked to the core and shout "un-axios." Too bad Wichita doesn't have Bishop Olmsted anymore, he is a WONDERFUL Roman Bishop.
SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine All of your posts in this thread come off as being exceptionally self-serving. If your approach to parish life is also "MeMeMeMe" then that may go a long way in explaining what you may have experienced over time at Holy Apostles. For my money, however difficult my Church and the Roman Church may be, I find Mary's post far more credible. I also don't think Father Deacon R. Brown is prone to talking out of his hat. So perhaps the discussion does not need to be closed, but perhaps your participation in it needs to be a bit more controlled and far less self-centered. Besides, Orthodoxy is soon to be gifted with your presence. Why would you come back to poison the well? Mary
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Wow...you think I'm so self-serving? Not so...
I'm tired of not being heard...and the other Byzantines not being heard...
Oh, Yeah...DIAK knows exactly what happened there...he's seen it all...of course...he doesn't say much because he's a Deacon...that means he's gotta be charitable. It's not my place to tell everyone here what DIAK has gone through before.
I, on the other hand, am just a lay person...who feel the freedom to speak out.
Why would you think I'd poison anything? I'd never poison OTHER people...it's not my character. Ask the Founders...ask anyone who know me well enough. They have seen me go through so much because I'm not the type of person who want to hurt anyone or do anything bad to the community. I have not hurt anyone in the community at all or have I ever spread rumors about anyone or done anything mean. I only speak what's true.
All I did was I gave everything I had...my heart...my soul...my time...pour it all out for the love of Holy Apostles Mission...I did for others..I helped other people all the time. I've gave my all and everything to Holy Apostles...and for the priests to treat me so horribly should not be tolerated by anyone.
I've been very angry for a very long time about the whole situation with the priests at Holy Apostles. It took me a long time to get over the pain and hurts...to a point where it's so unbearable that I had to cut it out of my system...my life...it took such a long time to get to a point where I am. There were a lot of unfinished business that it was hard for me to let go to not finish it. I'd rather finish everything and move on...but the pain was so unbearable that I had to just let it go.
You think it's all "ME ME ME ME"...it's not so...many others went through exactly what I went through...exactly the same. The only difference is that they had finished the business and I have not probably mainly because I CARED too much about Holy Apostles. I guess it's a mistake that I cared.
I just needed to SAY something especially NOW that Holy Apostles are closing down....not hold it in...bottle it up...I NEED TO SAY how I feel and what I think. It's a great opportunity to speak out...because by then I've vent it all out and then there's closure for me now.
You have no right to judge me as being self-centered. If you did, then you might as well think that Mary was a little self-centered because she's wailing about the whole thing because it's all ABOUT her...and she didn't give a hoot about the other people who were hurt and left the community. Think about the double standard comment!
SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine
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