www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Farewell to my brethren

AMM,

first off, good post.

Secondly, I too think that it will be a long way off. Even though the Pope continues to tell us to work towards unity, there are many things in this revision that don't work towards unity, in fact it moves us further from our Orthodox brethern as well as our Greek Catholic brethern. This is a shame.

Furthermore, the Byzantine Church cannot bring itself to even use the word Orthodox in the liturgy. There are supporters of the revision who have posted on this board that there are still too many ill feelings out there and that using the word Orthodox would 'offend' too many people in the Byzantine Church.

Unfortunately, unity does seem to be way down the road.

Monomakh

>Furthermore, the Byzantine Church cannot bring itself to even use the word Orthodox in the liturgy.

I feel the need to correct these stereotypes again. It is used in my parish. There is hope if you want to look for it.

Are you a member of the Byzantine Church of America or UGCC or Melkite?

It is not in the new liturgy books for the BCA. The UGCC, Melkites, and Romanian all use the word.


Monomakh

Christ is Risen!


Fr. Loya,

I think the razing must apply to the RDL as well. In reading the foreward or introduction (I don't remember which it is because I don't have the new book in front of me at the moment), it says something about making the Liturgy relevant to modern Americans. That is one of the first principles of the RDL--and a bad one at that. Fr. Taft set forth this same principle:


When the expert and those in authority want to make Christianity a viable lifestyle so that it can survive--they have missed the heart of the Gospel which you preach, which has been passed down through the ages. They have ceased to be custodians of the faith and become its "reformers".

While I appreciate modern Amercian democracy and the benefits which I have over those of my grandparents who came from old country, nonetheless, I also see the loss of faith (which I myself had experienced as a young man and which still plagues many of my own siblings and cousins--well over a hundred on my mother's Rusyn side).

Pope Benedict knows that there exists in our times a clash of the titans of epic proportions--it is between modernity, which rejects logos and the Logos, and the Church which is rising from her sleep in one of the most crtical times in her history. See his Regensburg lecture.

Islam will not now let us ignore this clash. It was with the reflection on the difference between Islam and Christiantity that the Pope began that lecture in Regensburg. Furthermore, it strikes me as terribly significant that Benedict would allow Soloviev's Tale of the AntiChrist as part of his Lenten retreat.

Those who have fashioned, and are demanding obedience to the RDL, for whatever reason, don't see what Benedict sees, and won't be led by him. The greatest sign of this, as I see it, is the willingness to change the ancient Symbol, which represents the Faith of the Fathers, to comport with the modern academic world, which scoffs at Christ and His Church. In the secular world, those who have demanded a change in our language and enforced it by bullying and not without causing harm, have given us any number of other evils. It is time that the Church, not just in her faithful, but in her leadership, in her Bishops and theologians, see the modern world for what it is and hold their ground. The compromise of the RDL, however, does not give those of us with young familes much encouragement. If the the faithful are going to convert the secular world to Christ and His Church, and maintain our own faith in it, then we deserve, and have every right to demand, a liturgy and a liturgical life that will sustain us in the battle with the secular world.

Thank you for your own efforts and leadership.

lm

BCA.

And pray for the day when you can once again join them in communion...

From the very beginning, there were some Christians who were called to be martyrs and others who were not.

You are a seeker, a soul who seeks to be set on fire for God...eh? So you have been looking for that place of inner warmth, interior homecoming, for a long time. You may or may not find it where you are going. You may find something else even more important in your life.

So you are much more than just a branch in need of pruning, expendable. You are a soul in need. Seek what you need.

On the way, given some of what you've said here, be open to change.

I think that there is a change coming inside of Orthodoxy that is going to require some pretty steady sea legs. I think that was made pretty clear at the recent meeting in Belgrade. Surely the same can be said for the papal Church but you are not headed there so that is not my focus here.

One of the things that I have noticed is that in the white papers in preparation for the Belgrade meeting, the question was raised, by an Orthodox writer, concerning the Pentarchy in the first thousand years. The question was whether or not there was real primatial power and authority in the patriarchs.

The Orthodox answer was yes, there was real primatial power, exercised directly...with the implication being that now it is exercised indirectly. The follow-up question was, of course, if there was real primatial power and authority, then was there not real primatial power and authority for the first among equals, beyond some honorific. The answer was some mumbling...but not a resounding 'no' as I had expected to hear. That small concession is monumental in the whole discussion of the Petrine Ministry. Keep an eye on all of that and an open mind.

Also pick up and read, if you have not already, Bishop Hilarion's "The Mystery of Faith." Look particularly at the sections that deal with original sin and Baptism for the remission of original sin. You may possibly hear there is no such thing in Orthodoxy. You may also hear that there is no language of propitiation and atonement in the hospital for souls, but there is. Except for a few pages, I could teach any Latin rite child from Bishop Hilarion's extended catechism.

The eternal priesthood and powers of the priesthood are also denied by some Orthodox clergy, laity and hierarchs. I was in a protracted public discussion with a dear friend, an Orthodox monk, over this issue. I insisted that there were Orthodox who did in fact teach the eternal priesthood and powers of the priesthood and he claimed that was not so. He took it to his Metropolitan and came back telling me that my instincts were correct according to his bishop. And he did it publicly. That took immense courage, and a very open mind and heart.

These are the things that you will encounter from time to time. Be patient. Keep an open mind.

I have a yahoo list called Irenikon. There are Orthodox and Catholics faithful there and several members of the clergy from both confessions who are active on the list. You are welcome to look us up and join. It might help you in small ways.

God keep you strong.

Mary

There is, and fortunately it is readily available in various sources - the quotes of church father's, the decrees of Orthodox synods and Orthodox catechisms printed at various times.

There is unfortunately a sub-section of Orthodoxy (not Bishop Hilarion in my opinion) who specialize in caricaturizing western theology instead of engaging in dealing with the true differences. You will often see printed rather insane things like "we don't believe in Original Sin" or "you can't find the word's satisfaction used in the East in regards to the Atonement", etc. etc. Just look for any combination of the words Augustine-Anselm-Aquinas-Original-Sin-Satisfaction-Atonement and you probably know what you're in store for. Some of this is produced by virulently anti-western Orthodox natives, and some to cater to the Protestant convert (or potential convert) crowd or has been appropriated and reproduced by them. Some of the criticisms published about the film the Passion for instance were just ridiculous. I said fortunately above, because one can go back and point out these things are most certainly present.

This deliberate mis-characterization of what the west believes I think is actually quite problematic, though not always overtly so. Not only because it promotes an atmosphere of opposition (i.e. "we know what we believe, because we know what the west believes is wrong"), but is fundamentally in its own way un-catholic because it is completely singular in its outlook. Particularism and anti-Catholicism can unfortunately for some be a few of the seminal features of Orthodox belief. Conversely however I'm sure there are Roman Catholics out there who still view Orthodoxy or Eastern theology in basically the same way.

AMEN! Wow...are you ever on a role.

Yes, yes, yes to everything you have said here. In fact I have often said that some Orthodox who embrace an anti-Catholic position on a number of issues are at risk of denying even elements that are also fundamental to Orthodoxy (such as the need for a unified magisterium, without necessarily embracing all of the particular elements of how it functions in a Catholic context).

And AMEN to both your posts, Gordon and Andrew!

Andrew, that was an excellent post and everything you said is so very, very true.

In the Risen Christ,
Alice

P.S. I don't know why 'Recluse' has to say farewell just because he is becoming Orthodox?!? This is one of the most active, intellectual, spiritually mature, compassionate, friendly and interesting forums involving the East. I have yet to find an Orthodox forum that comes even close to it.

Yes, that is the real risk and what I meant by saying it can be dangerously un-catholic. The oppositional mentality can show up in all sorts of guises though. I believe based on what I've read here and heard elsewhere for instance, that what Monomakh is saying likely has a good deal of truth.

This has probably somewhat strayed. I would again say I think the issues we are talking about are important, but to me are kind of the bigger picture things that tend to be of secondary importance. Our lives as Orthodox and Catholic Christians are primarily liturgical, and the bulk of our active faith is in our own parish, and our first priority is the care and upbringing of our children. I think it's these more practical and tangible things that are the real driving forces behind or decisions of where we need to be.

The reality unfortunately is we're going to be separated from somebody at some level because of the situation the churches are in. That is even if we are able to affirm nearly everything about those we are separated from. Each person has to negotiate why and how they line up the way they do. It's not always black and white. There are clearly Orthodox people who privately have devotions to post schism Catholic saints. Bishop Zoghby says he only recognizes the Papacy as it existed in the first millennium. There are members of the Church of England who actually accept everything about the Papacy aside from its declaration that their orders are not valid. There are many such curious situations I'm sure. We all have to find our own way to navigate things.


Alithos Anesti!

What did Father Seraphim call some of it? The 'correctness disease'? I think so.

But it is not just some marginal element in Orthodoxy that takes the "particularist" positions. I do not fault my pastor here at all for the requirements that he laid at my feet. I understand him and I know he understands me. But he laid out the lines of the schism as he and his bishop see them and he said if I want to cross over into communion then I must really and truly cross over. I do not think that is unreasonable.

It's tough to pin down any one or two "lines" of particularist thought or teaching in Orthodoxy, and it reaches well into the hierarchy now in this country, in the smaller jurisdictions.

The Greeks are pretty predictably going to say nix to papal infallibility and that's about it for the big stuff. I know where I could go today to be received into Orthodoxy pretty much as I am...but then I would have to come home and look Father in eye. I can't do that. He would know my heart. Besides I can't keep my mouth shut long enough to "pass."

ROCOR and the OCA are going to be very tough jurisdictions to convince, under some possible threat of renewed communion with the Catholic Church, that there's not a world of difference between us, and it will take time and great patience to influence hearts and minds.

In the meantime, as you say, there are all those pastoral considerations and that is where we need to be on hand for one another in mutual understanding, respect and love.

Thanks so much for the things you are saying in this thread.

Mary

Many years! Welcome! Congratulations!

Indigo,

He is Truly Risen!

May Christ continue to be your Light!

In ICXC,

Gordo

I believe he called it, "the super-correctness disease".

This thread has indeed been beneficial. I think the title is misleading--I will not be saying farewell to the forum--but in a sense I will be saying farewell to communion with a Church that I love. I feel I have been betrayed by this Church. I have been thinking very hard about my reasons for leaving. Mary is correct. I have encountered very cold and hard hearted Orthodox Christians who carry a terrible prejudice for the Catholic Church. I have also seen the same attitude from Catholics toward Orthodoxy--it is the brutality of the schism. I have heard Orthodox priests deny the Western understanding of original sin and tell me there is no such thing as "once a priest always a priest"--that holy orders can be removed from a priest.

My point here is that both Churches, Catholic and Orthodox, are full of imperfect sinners and various prejudices and opinions. So I am forced to ask myself, why must I leave? Many of you are going to jump down my throat, but I believe the reason is because of inclusive language! Let me explain.

I am not a Church hopper. I would be able to deal with various abuses in the Church, whether I was Catholic or Orthodox. I am a fighter, and I would stay and fight for the truth. However, I am scandalized by inclusive language--my peace has been obliterated.

This has been an intentional and methodical agenda in the Ruthenian Catholic Church. From what I see, the nuns from Mt St Macrina have already neutralized the Triodion (even including one example of vertical inclusive language) and the Matins books. Last night I discovered a matins paperback that I kept from pilgrimage 2004 and it is neutralized--it even uses the phrase "He loves us all". The Liturgy of St John Chrysostom is neutralized and the revision of the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts will soon be released in a neutralized version. I am expecting the older versions of the Pentacostarion, Festal Menaion, and Vespers books to be neutralized very soon. At the risk of sounding paranoid, this seems like an intentional process to ease us into a complete neutralization of all Church Liturgies and prayers. In my eyes, it is blasphemy. There is something diabolical and radical about the whole scenario. My heart cries out in agony.

And so to put it simply, I seem to be left with the following choice:

Be a part of the Orthodox Church, which is imperfect, but is apostolic with sufficient grace and valid sacraments and a Traditional Liturgy and prayers in the language of our Fathers.

or

Be a part of the Ruthenian Catholic Church, which is imperfect, but is apostilic with sufficient grace and valid sacraments and a neurtalized Liturgy and prayers in the modern language of the secular politically correct humanistic radical feminists.

The first choice gives me peace--the second choice does not.


There has been such a vast effort to neutralize our Church, that I believe it will take many, many years, if ever, to rid it of this worldly virus--and I cannot take the chance of raising my child in such an atmosphere. If the Liturgy had not been neutralized, I surely would have stayed and fought against the other errors in the revision (my Church was one that has been reduced). But inclusive language has robbed me of my peace.

And that is where I stand.

The most wretched of all sinners,
Recluse