www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Good News for People Concerned about Inclusive Language

Christ is Risen!

Father Deacon Paul,

Might I suggest that you revisit the facts?

There is a direct correlation between the type and quality of the liturgical celebration and the growth of parishes. Parishes (and jurisdictions) which celebrate the full, traditional Liturgy are vibrant and growing. Those which do not are shrinking (and the further they get from the official books the faster they are shrinking).

In 1984 ROCOR started a mission parish in Monessan (Belle Vernon) in a 2 car garage. Today it has grown to 4 full parishes in McKeesport, Belle Vernon, California and Clymer. I understand that at least one of them had over 400 people attending for Paschal Matins and Divine Liturgy. The Serbian Orthodox opened a new parish near Greensburgh that is growing quickly and St. Nicholas Serbian parish in Monroeville has added about 20% to its congregation in the past few years. The Greek Orthodox have opened several new convents and monasteries around the country (especially Cleveland and Saxonburg) which are growing and vibrant.

In our own Church we parishes with abbreviated and revised Liturgies dying (take a look at the cathedral in Munhall). Yet we see examples of parishes that celebrate the fullness of the Byzantine Liturgy (Vespers, matins and Divine Liturgy) vibrant and growing (Cleveland and Aliquippa come to mind). I am familiar with Aliquippa. When a new pastor took over about 9 years ago there were fewer than 30 on a Sunday. Over the course of 2 years the Divine Liturgy was raised from �Low Church Greek Catholic� that is typical of Pittsburgh to the complete �Red Book� (not a litany omitted). Vespers on Saturday evenings were added together with those for the Great Feasts and on Sundays during the Fast. Within 1 year attendance grew to 100 people and grew to about 140 a few years ago (higher for Christmas & Pascha). And this happened in a former steel town where unemployment is very high and half the population has left in the past 20 years. [Listen to the links on the website's home page to hear for yourself.]

To this I can add many examples from across the country. [My parish here in Virginia has lost 30% of the people since Bishop Andrew implemented many of the revised rubrics 8 or 9 years ago. The Melkites, Serbs, OCA within 20 miles have all doubled. The ROCOR Cathedral in DC has tripled in numbers. In California, in the middle of the desert in a tiny town, Holy Resurrection Byzantine Catholic Monastery now attracts about 90 locals each Sunday with the full Liturgy.]

The fact is that even in the midst of the economic challenges faced in greater Pittsburgh there are parishes that are growing, that are vibrant and spirit-filled. These are the parishes that pray the full Divine Liturgy.

Have I ever suggested that you are my enemy? I have only suggested that you and those who support the revision are incorrect in your ideas. And I have backed up the positions I have posted with ample evidence from official Church documents, both Catholic and Orthodox.

I agree that people can be turned off by negativity, but what negativity there is equally divided between those supporting the revision and those supporting the Ruthenian recension.

I do agree that some who support the reform seem to perceive all principled disagreement as personal attack. That seems to be merly a tactic to stop all discussion.

That which is wrong is always a lightning rod for dissatisfaction. Most people do wish to do what is right. [If you don�t accept that it is wrong read the Liturgical Instruction and the other Vatican documents on Liturgy.]

I have never suggested such a thing and I don�t remember anyone here arguing such a thing. Please read the Vatican documents about Liturgy. Liturgical change occurs organically over time. Liturgical change that needs to be mandated is by definition not organic.

I support change. The first change we need to do is to follow the Vatican documents which tell us to change our Liturgy to match the official books (adding back Vespers and Matins). Then we allow the Liturgy to form our Church over a few generations into a healthy and vibrant Church. Then we give set the soil for organic growth. Allow priests to experiment with this or that. See where it goes. The example I have offered several times is the growth of the Gospel proclaimed at Pascha Matins (Mark 16). It started with the Greeks and is now popular with many Slavs. It is growing organically. No mandates or hurt people required.

I agree, but maybe not with what you mean. What should happen is that the bishops should rescind the Revised Liturgy and promulgate the Ruthenian Liturgy. The Ruthenian Liturgy (when celebrated correctly) is attractive to people in ways that the Revised Liturgy can never be. Spending a few hours reading Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) should make this clear to anyone who is willing to seek. You might also consider that the current disunity in our Church did not come from those who support the Ruthenian Liturgy (and the Roman directives to restore and not revise). It comes solely from those who insist on revisions that must be mandated because no one would choose them or embrace them freely.

I am not clear about much of the rest of what you posted. It did not seem to have anything to do with the discussion.

I do agree with you and everyone else who has recommended pray. I spend time each day praying for each bishop by name, those who participate here, and for our whole Church.

John

Mary, I've been trying to make a point with each post but nobody was listening. I was responding to the challenge that brother Monomakh issued. If we can become more civil about this passionate issue things will be more constructive and maybe, just maybe, God will hear us ---- no, maybe we will hear God and we will accept his mercy and gifts.

I assume that you are fairly young because you say that our Church has become a sinking ship in just the past 10 years. I have much too much respect to call it a sinking ship, but its vitality has been waning since the late 50's. That's half a century.

My First Communion class, yes, that's correct, I said First Communion--- to my memory had 11 kids. Of them three of us are known church attending Byzantine Catholics, four have become Roman, three have moved and religious affiliation unknown, one comes once a year to Divine Liturgy and one died in Viet Nam. The four who became RC didn't do so because of lack of Vespers nor because the Liturgy was too short.
My guess is that if you did an analysis of all the children of the 50's and early 60's, the "glory" days of the Church when the Seminary was full, you would come up with similar figures. I think that the RC, Methodist, and Baptist Church in my hometown would have the same figures.

So something needed to be done 30-40-50 years ago and it wasn't. So now at least our Bishops are trying, but all they get are complaints. Do our people really want Vespers? Try my suggestion, see if you can get ten people to help you. Do the people who post on this forum want to have an impact on Liturgical worship? Go to the Cantor's Institute so you can sing Vespers, take the Office of Religious Education certification classes and become a teacher. Ask your pastor for you to be considered for the parish council. Start a Bethany Ministry so that the homebound who supported the Church of 70 years don't feel abandoned by the parish family. Encourage your youth to join the youth groups and activities. And learn the new hymns which , which are claimed to revive the true Rusyn chant.

And please, Mary, pursue God's calling and follow the route to a vocation. We need you! Your Church needs you!

We must nourish our souls and those of our brothers and sisters. Correction, we must allow God to use us for this nourishment, for we can't do it on our own.

Father Deacon Paul

AMEN, Fr. Deacon Paul!

I seldom post on this part of the Byzantine Forum, since I feel much of the 'tongue wagging' is what they would say in my old Southern Baptist Church, the work of the devil. You know, people really need to take a look at what they are saying and doing. Words kill the soul and the body, just as though someone takes something and kicks or hits it.

Scripture speaks LOUDLY about the way we use our 'words'. Often the words spoken here, have not glorified God. They tend to be a gripe, a complaint, but little action on the part of those doing the 'tongue wagging'.

So now that we have 'PUT ON CHRIST' and are celebrating his Resurretion, let us also live as Christ. Live in love and charity!

The changes in the Divine Liturgy are there for now. So go on with life, bring forth the hymns that have always been a part of the culture - I may be wrong - but I don't think there is anything saying they cannot be sung. God makes 'provision', he has made away, so that the things you love will not be taken away.

I hope I am making a little bit of sence anyway. God bless you all!

John,

I think you should make sure those supplying you with the "facts" are correct.

My parish uses the Blue Book with every abbreviation allowed in it. We use the Levkulic books for Pre-Sanctified and Holy Week Services. We have two Sunday Liturgies. One Sat night, one Sunday morning. We regularly have between 75 and 100 people at each Liturgy, at least half of them young familes like mine. For Pascha we had Matins Sat night and two Liturgies Sunday morning. All were full. We have 80-some kids in ECF. According to you we should be dying but instead we are vibrant and growing, so lets not generalize.

Sometimes growth and vibrancy are due to things other than the Liturgy. Perhaps an abbreviated Blue Book is as capable of enliving as the full Red Book? I know it to be true. I believe St. George's in Aliquippa would have grown even with the Blue Book because Fr. Elias is a good priest and pastor. Put a bad pastor in and even with the Red Book numbers are going to drop.

As for ROCOR, unless I am mistaken, the McKeesport parish has been there a while, certainly before 1984. The Clymer parish is the result of a schism from an OCA parish not growth.

Here a pictures from Pascha 2007 in McKeesport:
http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=4355165&a=32505355&p=75456820

I count about 30 people in that picture, and I realize the entire nave isn't pictured but I estimate about half of it is. You do the math. The Belle Vernon parish couldn't hold 100 people. Monessen might've had 400 but I doubt it.

Now my point in this isn't to deride ROCOR. My point is that all Byzantine Churches, Catholic and Orthodox are hurting. People here often comment on the precipitous drop in membership shown in Pontifical Annual, while at the same time Orthodox have experienced the same decline, if they are honest enough to admit it. Fr. Thomas Hopko put the OCA membership at around 30,000 and this OCA report seems to confirm that:
http://www.oca.org/PDF/Evangelization/2004.Parish-Revitalization-notes.pdf

My point is we have an ideal notion that if we have a perfect Liturgy our problems will by and large be solved. This is a fantasy. If all it took was by the book Liturgy, why has the OCA declined? Despite their unabbreviated Liturgy the OCA is in the midst of scandal far greater than our revised translation. And yet some here are willing to ignore or forgive that scandal because, hey, at least they don't use inclusive language.

The reality is inspite of having a beautiful and ancient Liturgy, the Byzantine Churches, EC and EO, with few exceptions, have been losing ground in the US, unable even to hold on to the majority of their own children, let alone win any substantial amount of converts to make up for the lossess. Are the Eastern Catholics worse off than the Eastern Orthodox? Yes, but I think that is because we are smaller, but in the end we are all in the same boat.

If I recall, one of the speakers at an Orientale Lumen conference said that in the future the only Eastern Christians that will be in the US will be those that want to be. I believe him.

Fr. Deacon Lance

"The OCA is in the midst of scandal far greater than our revised translation. And yet some here are willing to ignore or forgive that scandal because, hey, at least they don't use inclusive language." (As quoted by Fr. Deacon Lance)

Fr. Deacon Lance, the faithful of the BCC are also in the same scandal! A million?! was spent to promulgate a flawed Liturgy that no other Greek Catholic Church shares.

You mentioned a "bad" priest doing a red book liturgy and membership declining. Give me that priest any day over another who would rather chop up the liturgy and hope to watch membership increase. Do our people "want" vespers? It's not a question of want, but what's right. The rubrics specify this. You know it and I know it. If you build it, and they will come.

Oh well, June 29th should be a milestone for the BCC. Let's see how it plays out...

I am tired of hearing from Deacons. I want to hear from our priests. The ones that are here and silent as tombs and those who have gone because they could not remain here and live out fruitful vocations. I want to hear from our clergy.

I want to hear from diocese other than Pittsburgh, and from parishes other than the ones you say are growing now. I want to hear from the ones that were growing but got cut off at the knees.

I want to hear from the places where Latin rite Catholic families have been turned away, and not by Byzantine faithful who don't want them, but by chancery policy.

You think we are all blind Deacon Lance.

You think we will accept without question that every parish or mission that has been closed in the past ten years has been closed because it needed to be, because it was dying.

You think every priest who has left or has been removed has been driven out or removed for legitimate cause.

You take the oft heard position here of pruning and good riddance.

Surely you pull our collective legs Father Deacon when you talk about "facts". Surely you think we are stupid and should be removed, good riddance. And surely you will have your wish. Then you may make your own truth.

Mary

Mary,

I am going to have to ask you retract your statements. You presume to proclaim my feelings on a number of situations on which you have zero knowledge.

Never have I said good riddance to a single person that has left our Church. I mourn the loss but wish the person well in their new Church. I don't think I have ever spoken on closed parishes or removed priests, but certainly mourn the closure of any parish even if deemed necessary because of lack of parishioners and closeness of another parish.

Why do you think I bother to engage people on this forum? I am trying to calm people down and get them to stay, not tell them good bye and good riddance. Please don't project your imaginings unto to me.

Fr. Deacon Lance

They are correct.

Wonderful! And here in Passaic I can give you a list of parishes that have lost a sizable number of people due directly to the reforms mandated during the past 8 or so years. Again, I can start with the parish right here in Northern Virginia. Before the mandated rubrical revisions there were a total of about 450 each Sunday between the two Divine Liturgies. After the mandated revisions the number dropped pretty quickly about 230 total on Sundays. The Levkulic Presanctified attracted 100 on Wednesdays and 120 on Fridays. The first time the Revised Presanctified was used the numbers were 100. The second time the Revised Presanctified was used there were 25. The numbers have not risen above that since. If your pastor is smart and cares for his people he will refuse to implement the Revised Liturgy, as it has been demonstrated to chase people from our parishes.

I have never suggested the Liturgy was the sole determining factor of the growth and vibrancy of a parish. It is, however, at the very heart of what it means to be a Christian to worship God.

I have never suggested such a thing and am not sure why you are responding as if I have.

Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance

Despite their unabbreviated Liturgy the OCA is in the midst of scandal far greater than our revised translation. And yet some here are willing to ignore or forgive that scandal because, hey, at least they don't use inclusive language.

Such a attack on a Sister Church is insulting and I ask that you withdraw it or be expelled from the community. You should realize that each and every Church has its share of scandals and that is quite possible that some scandals in our Church make the current challenges the OCA faces look like nothing. If you are truly saying that people should leave a Church because of possible scandal then truly every Church would be empty � especially ours.


John

Put a question mark behind each one. That is the only concession I will make.

Why do you bother to engage people on this forum?

If you want us to stay then stop poking us in the eye with some fantasy Church that does not exist.

Some of us do see, do know, have talked to many of our clergy...the ones who do remain.

Do you know that in my files I have a letter from the Parma diocese threatening me with a lawsuit because I began to publicly talk about the fact that things were going very wrong in this Metropolia?

Do you know that my own pastor ignored my requests that he come bless my house for three years running?

Do you know his behavior toward me, with nasty and threatening phone calls to my house, has so alienated my mother that she won't even think again about attending one of his liturgies?

Do you know that I spent three months trying to get some attention paid to my request for guidance in discerning a vocation in the Pittsburgh diocese and have yet to receive anything by way of a formal response. And yes, I have spoken informally with people and sent formal letters to my bishop. No reply whatsoever. Not even and acknowledgement of receipt.

Do you have any idea how our leadership treats our old people in their own homes, in fits of temper? I do.

Do you have any idea how our priests have been treated without just cause? I do.

Don't try to play patsy with people like me, Deacon Lance.

We don't go away, no matter what is done to us.

This Metropolia probably would have been better off suing me ten years ago, before I really had a chance to see what this Church is made of.

Am I angry? Not any more. Just determined.

Mary Elizabeth

Dear Father Deacon Paul,

I am so sorry that you've gotten pulled into the middle of mean things. You are trying your best and it shows and I am sorry if anything that I have said has wounded you. I know that if we were to meet, we would get along just fine with respect to loving our faith, truly believing in God, and wanting the best for our Church. There's no doubt in my mind that you are a good man, a good deacon, and gift to our Church.


I am not so young Father Deacon. Not so young at all, and I do understand what you are saying about our people and the needs that have been in place for a long time, and some of our early failures to be able to keep our young ones home, for example. I do understand that.

I think ALL of your suggestions are good ones and I hope people will hear you and do some positive things in their parishes as they are able.

Where we do not agree is that the best choices have been made over the past decade at the level of our Church's leadership. There's no point in assessing blame at all. Yet by the same token there's nothing that says we must stuff our heads in the sand and pretend some very unholy things have not really happened.

I believe that far too many elements in this new liturgy are reflective of the worst of us, not the best of us.

At any rate, I hope you know now that I do not dismiss you out of hand nor am I weary of hearing from you, for your heart is clearly in the best place and that is hopeful you know.

love, in Christ

Mary Elizabeth

John,

"I have never suggested such a thing and am not sure why you are responding as if I have."

Not you, but it seems to me many here are acting that way.

"Such a attack on a Sister Church is insulting and I ask that you withdraw it or be expelled from the community. You should realize that each and every Church has its share of scandals and that is quite possible that some scandals in our Church make the current challenges the OCA faces look like nothing. If you are truly saying that people should leave a Church because of possible scandal then truly every Church would be empty � especially ours."

I am unsure how to respond as I think you have completely misinterpreted my post. I am not attacking the OCA, at least that was not my intent and I certainly realize every Church has its scandals. What I was trying to point out was that people who are scandalized by the new translation should, in my opinion, be equally scandalized by what is currently happening in the OCA. They seem not to be and many are joining her or considering joining her. I am not telling OCA people to leave the OCA, but I do say this as a caution to Byzantine Catholics contemplating leaving the Metropolia: The grass is not always greener. As you state all Churches have their problems, those who leave because of scandal are simply trading one set of problems for another, and will likely end up disappointed. I don't think anyone should leave any Church because of a scandal. Christ warned us we would have them so we should be prepared to ride them out.

After rereading my post, however, I do withdraw it, I should have wrote what I just did above rather than the terse statement I did post. I ask your forgiveness and that of the forum community.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Mary,

I am sorry for the treatment you have received. Let me simply say that I also know what it is like to be hurt by people in the Church.

As for your vocation discernment, a friend and fellow forum member went through the same thing. My suggestion is do what he did, take it into your own hands. Contact the monasteries directly and set up discernment visits with them.

Fr. Deacon Lance

I am truly sorry if I wounded you in any way too, Father Deacon.

The vocation is that of a consecrated hermit. I've been living the life for some years now and have good guidance from a spiritual father, a Carmelite hermit, and an Orthodox monk. There is also now an eastern Catholic bishop who is reviewing my circumstance as well.

I would rather remain in this Church if I can. But I fear that I have, in this forum alone, burned all my bridges. Time will tell.

In some ways I understand what you said about the OCA. I am currently spending most of my time in an OCA parish, and I just ache for those who must simply sit back and wonder what is happening to the Church.

It's an odd little comparison to make, because our warts are so well hidden since nobody talks, while the OCA has run a most public gauntlet this past year, with so many people talking that most of the talk is more hysteria than actual fact.

I surely don't want that for either the OCA or the Byzantine Metropolia.

I still think we need to start hearing from our priests, whatever the cost. It's very sad to me what has happened in this Church and pretending we aren't in a bad way is not going to fix it. And you can't pull a phoenix out of the ashes when the fire hasn't even stopped burning yet.

Mary

Christ is Risen!

I am definitely glad to see that some resolution has come about from some posters here on this thread. I also have to observe that this thread is way off topic. A number issues have been brought up and should be addressed as different threads in this and other sections of this forum. I am thus going to close this thread and invite posters to begin new threads in the appropriate areas of the forum.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator