www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Farewell to my brethren

I don't know if this little story will make a difference, or if it is even relevant, but I thought that I needed to share it:

On Lazarus Saturday, my parish was blessed to have a spiritual retreat with Metropolitan Kallistos Ware--perhaps the greatest Orthodox theologian of modern times, and perhaps a future saint.

During the Question and Answer period, a Greek Orthodox man who had travelled from Boston for this retreat, dared ask His Eminence: "why, in some translations of the Creed, do we say "for us men"...that is so unfair...I have a wife and daughters and I have to believe that Jesus died for them too!"

His Eminence's answer was simple: He started it by saying: "AHHHH, the poverty of the English language". He simply concluded by saying that language was never meant to hurt anyone. He did not entertain the accusation, nor did he insult the man..

Post Script by me: for what it is worth, the new Greek Orthodox Archdiocese translation has taken out 'for us men' in favor of 'for us'.... the poverty of the English language, in practice and indeed.

In Christ,
Alice

And this is precisely why Recluse needs to look more carefully at the communion he is entering. Liturgical revamping can come at any time, any place and is no respecter of East or West. As I've said before and will say again, the issue here is of earthly ideologies having currency in the mainstream and these being allowed to pass into the Church unchallenged. There is such a thing as bad incultration.

All of this of course reminds me of my freshman year in college two decades or so ago. PC was the big concern. It was being fought and books were written by the likes of Alan Bloom and Dinesh D'Souza in defense of natural language. Academia still capitulated to the thought/language cops. One of the booty prizes of the PCers is that they've run amok in the business world and now, the Church, with anemic resistance from the old guard. Our churchmen and liturgists can smugly talk of "anti-intellectual" leanings among those who criticize the secular ideology that continues to ravage the Church because, well, they won. You can afford to be smug and irritating when you're in control and have the great weight of modernity on your side. The revolution in the Ruthenian Church looks to me, an outsider, like the one I saw in the late 80s at the university. A few have managed to impose their will on the many -- composed mainly of the unsuspecting or indifferent -- and can now talk about how charitable and intellectual they are with one another. It leaves a bitter taste in the mouth though of the ordinary man in the pew. It also highlights how arrogance has a way of blinding men to the painfully obvious.

I see nothing in the Orthodox faith to prevent the same tragic destruction from taking place and no one has explained how the Greek innovation will not spread. There as here, they suffer from clericalism, a point emphasized repeatedly in Fr. Schmemann's book on the Eucharist. In fact, the RDL mimics the same behaviors and attitudes described by Fr. in his discussion on the scholastic influences in Eastern worship.

Recluse is opting for a very short term solution to a problem. I've tried to read all of his posts, but I don't remember whether he has a beef with certain Catholic doctrines. This is one thing. But if it's only about liturgy, then I fear he's setting himself up for some heartbreak in the near future.

It has nothing to do with any "poverty of the English language." (And shame on Bishop Kalistos, an Englishman, for speaking thus!) That gentleman who asked the question was merely showing his own ignorance of the language, and more significantly, how diabolically successful the feminists have been in altering perceptions of what the word man means. Where is the Teaching Church? Why is it capitulating to the Church's enemies?

And why do Greeks especially enjoy insulting the English language?

One can only scratch the head in wonderment at the reason why words such as men, man, and mankind suddenly became taboo in some circles.

Poverty indeed!

P.s--I was not aware that the Greek Orthodox Church has neutralized the Creed. Do you have any evidence of this?

edit: I beg your pardon Alice. I see that you are Greek Orthodox. It is unfortunate that they have tampered with the Creed also.

Bingo!

I am not very keen on doctrines that were defined after the first seven ecumenical councils--though I have been able to keep an open mind about "development of doctrine".

I have already explained about the failed inclusive experiment with the S.C.O.B.A.

Yes Sultan. It is quite possible that the OCA or ROC/ROCOR, or the Serbian Orthodox Church, etc., will fall into the gross modernist radical feminist error of inclusive language--but if I were a betting man, I would not place a bet on it.

I am saddened to see that the Greeks tampered with the Creed.

I appreciate what you are saying. I will say, however, that if it is true that that there is nothing stopping any church from adopting inadvisable (or plainly wrong) teachings and practices, then it means that vigilance of the laity is the only answer. It also means, for example, that should one's church fall into error to such a degree that the faith is impaired, that the laity should have the right and responsibility to take a walk. Let's say, hypothetically, that the Antiochian Orthodox Church (of which I am a member) were to universally adopt some abberant practice or teaching and it was clear that this was set. Well, in that case, I would find myself going over to the OCA or ROCOR or some other Church. There is no guarantee that any particular church, Roman, Orthodox, etc. will not fall into error. The infallibility of the Church only applies to the Church as a whole and if things get too bad, then it will mean that the faithful remnant will have to search each other out and bond together.

Joe

Several weeks ago, I attended a Greek Orthodox liturgy and "for us and our salvation" was spoken. I thought this was rather odd and almost posted a question about it here.

Joe

Dear Recluse,

I do understand your agony. So, you are not alone in your concerns. I would like to share with you some of my thoughts.

I have come to the point in my life, realizing this war against the Faith is far from over. It is going to take every bit of perseverance we have to sustain the battle ahead. I have thought about every option with regaurd to Churches, and none suffice. No choice seems to be "right". I have come to know I have NO HOME here on this Earth. Yes, I do believe in Holy Mother Church. I accept that I will live a life of long suffering awaiting the restoration of Mother Church. I don�t believe I will ever see the restoration. Oh, but what glory the restoration will be!!! I will offer my life, offering up my pain, hurt, and joy to this end of restoration. I especially beg forgiveness for the abuses and blasphemies that are taking place.

Some have said that the Church is suffering Her passion. I cannot separate myself from her at this desperate hour. It takes strong Faith to look at the Church today and see a Divine Institution. Daily I fight. My faith is questioned. But always I come back to restoration (a Resurrection of sorts) of Holy Mother Church.

"You must fight energetically, since you know very well what great wounds the undefiled Spouse of Christ Jesus has suffered, and how vigorous is the destructive attack of Her enemies." -His Holiness, Venerable Pope Pius IX

Recluse, I do understand if God is leading you to Orthodoxy. It is a move I cannot ever imagine making. Not that I know the will of GOD for you, and I am not judging you. For the restoration will include the unity of East and West.

"This most unhappy war will end, when an emperor of Spanish origin will be elected who will in a wonderful manner be victorious through the sign of the Cross . . . He will restore the Church in Santa Sophia (in Constantinople), and all the earth shall enjoy peace and prosperity; and new cities will be erected in many places" - St. Bridget of Sweden.

Recluse, I am very concerned with the poison of inclusive language. I am struggling with it now. For now, I teach my children daily and trust GOD that will protect them. Don�t underestimate your influence on your child. Your example is vital. --- I believe the grass roots movement is instrumental in this war. Make your HOME a sanctuary and your child will be well armed for battle. Our homes, the domestic churches, are the boot camp, and how we instruct our children at home cannot be underestimated. You and your wife are the living examples and no inclusive language can conquer it.

Reculse, please remember to teach your child to pray for the restoration every night!

GOD be with you! Take courage!

Dear Gabriel,

His Eminence is NOT Greek! He is, however, a scholar that knows Greek very well. I believe his point was that in Greek there is one word, and it suffices. In English there are many different words to correspond to that one word, but each is slightly different than the other. This happens with any translations between ANY languages.

English is a beautiful and rich language, and one which Metropolitan Kallistos brings to new heights, I might say!

As far as the feminists, I have to agree...they are ridiculous, and the men who fall into their lies are equally ridiculous.

I couldn't help but turn to my friend (she was Irish Catholic and converted to Orthodoxy) when I heard that question, and roll my eyes! She responded to me in the same way!

(okay, okay, I know that wasn't very nice, but I couldn't help it)

In Christ,
Alice

There have been various English translations which are still floating around. I believe the one which will be the standard includes "for us men... etc.".

Fr. Anthony would be able to explain this best.

The common SCOBA translation, which was horrendous, was accepted by no one.

I will try to bring back home the newest 'official' Greek Archdiocesse version on Sunday if Father Anthony doesn't answer.

So far many of you, including Father Tom, are missing something vital to your salvation here.

I don't want to pick anyone out for censure, but I make an exception for Father Tom since I think he, as a priest, should be more careful with his words and ideas.

There has been a tendency throughout the Church and exemplified in the desert fathers that you remain in obedience to legitimate authority in all things but sin.

So that one should never so easily speak of hopping from one spiritual father to another, one parish to another, one jurisdiction to another, one Church to another, as in the case of moving from Orthodoxy to the Catholic Church or the other way around.

Moving from one thing to another so as to feel better, or because we have decided that something is flawed beyond repair in the Body, is all taken rather matter of factly in some of the posts here. Why, any reasonable person could hardly disagree. So I suppose you could number me among the unreasonable <smile>.

WE do not make the Church holy, even though Father Loya says we do. The Church says that the Body of Christ is holy. The Body of Chist is holy and we participate as members of the Body in humble obedience through faith, in hope, with charity.

Now you loose sight of that foundational truth over some "loss of peace" and you'll be off the path so far and so fast that it will take an act of God to get you back. Nobody has an inherent right to feel good on the Way of Perfection.

You may take that to the spiritual bank.

Mary

Well said Joe! I know this has already begun to happen with some Catholics, small scale and larger scale. Is this happening with the Orthodox too?

I'm not sure how to "come out" on this forum, so I figured this thread was a good starting point.

I, like Recluse, have been considering conversion to Orthodox. For the past two or three years I've been praying about it and talking to both Orthodox and Catholic friends and priests, etc. I had decided to make the switch some time ago, but didn't have the heart to leave my parish, because I love the people there. I've never felt comfortable in the Byzantine Catholic Church, and I've always felt my time here would be short. I knew in my heart in 1994 that some day I would be Orthodox. God has been calling me to this for a long time, and I've resisted. Like I said, I decided to convert in January of this year, and spoke with a priest and my family.

Then the Revised Divine Liturgy was promulgated.

But unlike so many of my brothers, I saw this as a reason to stick around a bit. I'm in cantor school, I've sung the RDL at the seminary, I'm familiar with it. I needed to help my parish make the adjustment. I like much of the RDL and find the pew books great resources. I'm not so keen on all the words, but I'm a linguist and will probably find problems with words no matter where I am.

In my heart, I believe everything the Orthodox Church teaches and holds True. How could I continue to remain in Communion with Rome if I no longer believe what Rome teaches? God will lead us where He wants us if we are open to His will. I woke up one day a month or so ago and knew the time had come to stop avoiding Orthodoxy.

I will be Chrismated Orthodox in 2 weeks.

I, like Recluse, ask for your prayers.

But I want to say something about all of this conversion stuff going on. By unhappy chance, God has chosen this time for me to become Orthodox. I say "unhappy chance" because I've had to make it very clear to everyone that I support the Catholic heirarchs in their revised Liturgy -- as a Catholic and a cantor (a representative of the Church), I must. My conversion has been a long time in coming and I know in my heart that I'm doing what is right for myself. I'm afraid that too many people are converting for the wrong reasons -- we joke (and sometimes not joke) about Latins who "flee Rome" going to the BCC to avoid the Novus Ordo; but those of us who "flee Rome" to avoid the RDL are no different.

Please don't think I'm pointing fingers at anyone, I just wanted to share my opinion on this. I've posted the same before if you look through my posts. It just hits a little closer to home now that I'm also leaving the BCC; though I look at it positively as "I'm joining the Holy Orthodox Church."