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And I think that most of us who have made some kind of switch realize that we are not entering a utopia. This isn't an issue of self-control, but an issue of searching out one's conscience and doing what one feels one has to do.
Joe Well said Joe. As always!
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A lot of good advice in there.
Godspeed to you recluse no matter your choice!
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Anyway, my point was: don't be so hard on Bishop Kallistos Ware. I am sure that a man of his distinguished background has good reason to say what he does. He is a living saint, much like the Pope and the previous Pope, who does not have it in his soul or heart to belittle anyone or anything. There is a difference of course between belittling and between pointing out the truth of the matter. Benedict is doing a wonderful job in refuting--and that very forcefully--the relativists. They are all still men. And unless certain ones have spoken "ex cathedra," they, like the rest of us, should be reminded when they have missed the mark, because ideas have consequences as this thread is attesting to. So perhaps the Bishop was not feeling well that day. Passions sure are running deep on this thread! I *knew* that fools tread where angels fear!  I am sorry I gave the impression that His Eminence did not refute feminist inclusive sentiment. He infact, did in a most diplomatic and respectful way--but I don't remember his words exactly. Feeling mischievous, I will throw a curve ball here about 'mankind'/'anthropous'---a more accurate word to those of us who speak Greek is *actually* :persons/people--anyone ready for yet another translation?!?! LOL! (Personally, I think that 'humans' sounds like we are members of Star Fleet differentiating ourselves from Klingons and/or Vulcans! ) JUST teasing! I just heard two Resurrection CD's in the car: (Eikona) in English and St. Vladimir's in English...both are heavenly and have made me feel spiritually touched and in a mood where nothing can make me despair--not a translation or an argument. CHRIST IS RISEN! CHRISTOS VOSKRESE! CHRISTOS ANESTI! Have a great day, Alice
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Feeling mischievous, I will throw a curve ball here about 'mankind'/'anthropous'---a more accurate word to those of us who speak Greek is *actually* :persons/people--anyone ready for yet another translation?!?! LOL! OK--I'll swing and try to hit a home run. It would be heresy to say that "for us persons, he became a person," for the simple fact that he already was a Person--a Divine one at that. Have a great weekend too! Indeed He is Risen! Voistinu Voskrese! Now please teach me the Greek!
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Mary,
With all due respect, you are not recluse's spiritual mother. Recluse has already said that it is not simply anger over the liturgical revisions that is motivating him. I can tell you that the vast majority of those I've known who have switched from Catholicism to Orthodoxy or vice versa do so after a long period of pain and struggle. And I think that most of us who have made some kind of switch realize that we are not entering a utopia. This isn't an issue of self-control, but an issue of searching out one's conscience and doing what one feels one has to do.
Joe Just how much respect is due, Joe?  That's always an interesting opener to a critique of some kind, don't you think? Always makes me wonder. I was not attempting to be anybody's mother in this. I have no authority over anyone who does not ask and accept it from me. I listened to what the young man had to say and I responded as one who is interested and who cares, and who walks a similar road. He is free to take or leave what I offer. Anger, particularly when it is self-recognized as anger, is almost always a matter of self-control, Joe. Always ours to control, unless one's mind is incapable of being controlled because of some terrible loss of chemical balance or injury. And anger is always a spiritual stumbling block, and like an ice berg the tip may disappear yet the stump remains. I thought it was worth mentioning. As to the assertion that we make the Church holy, well that does not seem to be Recluse's problem. He seems to be seeking a place that will be better able to help him become holy. I am suggesting that he take the first step while he is still where he is and quell that righteous wrath now, because, as others have noted, human frailty is a rampant in the Body. Blessings....Mary
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Mary,
I understand your concern. This isn't about church shopping or parish hopping, however. I was Melkite 12 years and struggled with serious doctrinal issues for several of those years before making a decision. Also, I realized that Orthodoxy has its own problems. In fact, I was quite happy with my parish and I still love my brethren there deeply.
The point I was making is that there is no guarantee that any individual church will never fall into error. If a church deviates to the point where it obscures the tradition or teaches false doctrine, then one might be obligated to leave (I say, 'might' because only each individual can decide this).
Joe Thank you Joe. You are correct. There are other issues that have surfaced over the years and they are cumulative. But Mary is correct also. Anger is a passion and it has affected my ability to pray the Liturgy in peace. But I often wonder if it is a righteous anger. Is there such a thing? You see, I do not know the answer to this question. It is a reaction to a translation that I know in my heart is a terrible error. When it comes time to say the Creed, I am painfully reminded of the error and my heart cries out in agony. I fight every day to quell the passions of every sort. But this reaction is very difficult to control. Peace to all. The worst of sinners, Recluse
Last edited by Recluse; 04/13/07 07:31 PM.
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I listened to what the young man had to say and I responded as one who is interested and who cares, and who walks a similar road. He is free to take or leave what I offer. Thank you Mary. And thank you for the compliment--but I am probably much older than you realize. Your words are always welcome and they always assist me to reflect a little deeper. Recluse
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Recluse,
I will pray for you and your discernment.I frankly hope that people like you will stay in the Metropolia, and help us orthodoxize our parishes. But I understand, I too, have considered moving from the Byzantine Catholic Church for the Orthodox, although for other reasons. Right now, I feel called to stay in union with Rome. I have a deep love for our Ruthenian Church.
I very much respect your decision. Please remain with us on the Forum, if you feel so inclined.
S'Bohom,
Lance Thank you Lance. Your words are like soothing balm for my soul. Many blessings to you and your famuly, Recluse
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One more thing I might add, upon reading some of the other posts here. I noticed some people like the prayers in the older English.
I recently found a treasure, an older version of our Ruthenian Prayer book, which uses the traditional language.
I sometimes wonder if liturgists underestimate people's ability to read more dignified language.
I think they have also way overestimated how offended people might feel about so called non-inclusive language. I have the original version and the update of the Jordanville prayer book. Oh how I love the Traditional language. These books are real treasures. Where can I find the book of which you speak? Recluse
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I listened to what the young man had to say and I responded as one who is interested and who cares, and who walks a similar road. He is free to take or leave what I offer. Thank you Mary. And thank you for the compliment--but I am probably much older than you realize. Your words are always welcome and they always assist me to reflect a little deeper. Recluse Or I am feeling older than me own years since I decided to spend Bright Week with the flu!! But it eases my heart to hear your responses and I will only say now that I will pray for you daily for I have fought the beast myself and it is not a battle won with ease. God's abundant blessings....Mary
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Thank you Mary. And thank you for the compliment--but I am probably much older than you realize. Your words are always welcome and they always assist me to reflect a little deeper. Recluse Dear Recluse, The is the address for the list I mentioned yesterday. There are some excellent Orthodox participants there who might be very helpful to you in your journey....Mary http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Irenikon
Last edited by Elijahmaria; 04/13/07 07:52 PM.
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Dear Recluse, The is the address for the list I mentioned yesterday. There are some excellent Orthodox participants there who might be very helpful to you in your journey....Mary http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IrenikonMany thanks Mary. I will explore this site! I hope that you are feeling better. Your prayers are much appreciated. I will also remember you in my daily prayers. Peace and blessings to you, Recluse
Last edited by Recluse; 04/13/07 08:37 PM.
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Christ is Risen!
Mary,
I must ask your patience but I am not sure that I understood some of the points in your posts in reference to me. I do not recall ever saying that "WE make the Church holy" or even intentionally implying anything like that. This concept sounds like some of the countefeit Vatican II spirituality (as opposed to the real Vatican II) more commonly seen in the west in recent decades whic I have no use for.
One of my points is to to encourage anyone who is disturbed at anything to make their thoughts known to their bishop. I do not advocate disobedience nor leaving our Church. Sharing one's heart with the "Father" of the Church "family is not in any way being disobedient. I always emphasize that expressions to our Bishops should be respectful, offer productive and positive alternatives and be well founded. In fact, the very "fatherly" quality of the "Patriachial" model of leadership in the Eastern "lung" of Church invites us "children" to in fact share our hearts with our "father"(bishop, pastor, Patriach, abbot.) In this way the wise discerment of our "fathers" on matters relevant to all of us is actually being charitably served.
Fr. Thomas J. Loya, STB.,MA.
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Christ is Risen!
I applaud the recent post by Im regarding the significance of the Bridegroom-Bride relationship in the whole matter of Sign, Sacrament and liturgical text.
Where there is gender confusion there is theological confusion.
Where there is theological confusion there is gender confusion.
Gender actually IS theology as it is the way (mystically) in which God reveals Himself and in which we in turn as humans are able to love as God loves. Our gender is an icon of the very interior life of the Holy Trinity. Gender is not arbitrary. It is revelatory. I hope to be picking this point up much more comprehensively in the future.
"..Christ emerges from the tombe like a bridegrooom from a bridal chamber" (Paschal Matins.)
--Fr. Thomas J. Loya, STB., MA.
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