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Joined: May 2006
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learner Member
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Aren't you overlooking the fact that Latin was used for the Roman Litugy BECAUSE it was the vernacular at that time and place?
The same is true of Slavonic, Coptic, Syriac and the other traditional languages still in use.
I am old enough to remember the Tridentine mass in the 1950s, having been a server and junior seminarian, and I can assure you it was often far from the epitome of sacredness etc. One attraction of Latin was apparently that God can understand it at any speed. I haven't attended a twelve-minute Mass since 1962.
Like the present usage, the previous form could be wonderfully spiritual or not, depending on the circumstances.
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Any Mass in the vernacular should be just an historical footnote? And why, pray, is that? If you wish to be consistent, you might adopt the position that the Mass should be celebrated exclusively in some language that no one knows and which everyone is forbidden to learn, lest they might understand what is being said!
For that matter, the Bible should also, by the same logic, be available, if at all, only in some impenetrable and utterly inaccessible language.
As to whether there are people who want the Tridentine Mass in languages other than Latin - printing statistics suggest that this is indeed the case. The English Missal was reprinted only three or four years ago, and is already out of print again (I trust that the next reprint will consider such things as restoring the two-color printing for the altar edition, and bringing the whole book up to the 1962 Latin missal).
Reminds me of a conversation I had a few years ago with a priest somewhat older than I am. The question of concelebration arose, and he insisted that "of course" concelebration could never be tolerated in the Tridentine Mass. I pointed out that he had done this "heinous" act himself on at least one occasion, and he was quite stunned - although he acknowledged the truth of it.
Let's not be foolish. Nothing at all prevents a vernacular celebration from being edifying, dignified, beautiful, and traditional. Notice that I am not in the least arguing in favor of a prohibition of Latin - simply that Latin should not again be imposed (it was only about ten years before Vatican II that a priest in France was suspended for life - for the dreadful crime of having celebrated Mass in French).
Fr. Serge Father Serge, My father was in seminary many years ago when a mandate was issued by the curia that ALL seminary classes should be delivered in Latin. The rector of the seminary commented that such a thing would not last in North America. "But why?," someone asked. The rector responded, "Because the original document was translated into English and distributed to the seminaries!" The mandate was rescinded shortly thereafter. Regarding the view of Latin in some circles, which quite frankly borders on the idolatrous, did not the Eternal Word translate Himself into the corporeal language of man by taking flesh? It would seem that there is an incarnational principle involved here regarding the mission of Christ and the Church. I personally see nothing wrong with maintaining some of the Latin, like the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei. Beyond a few parts, the Mass becomes virtually unintelligible to the masses. BTW - someone mentioned finding a place where the Ordo of Paul VI is done well. One such place where it is done according to the principles of Sacrosanctam Concilium is St. Agnes in St. Paul, Minnesota. http://www.stagnes.net/index.htmlThose who are interested may want to browse a bit here and read some of the articles by the Pastor Emeritus, Msgr. Richard Schuler. God bless, Gordo
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Dear Gordo,
The mandate your father mentioned was almost certainly a result of Pope John XXIII's Veterum Sapientiae. The document is just about forgotten now, but it promised to hold on to Latin until the bitter end. The bitter end came a year or so later.
Christ is Risen!
Fr. Serge
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Joined: Feb 2003
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The Latin Mass would be unintelligible to the masses nowdays, but it was not always so. It wouldn't take very long though for the masses to get the hang of it once again, if Latin Missals, classes, and a little home study were implemented. With computers now in most homes, a child could study it on line.
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AthanasiusTheLesser Member
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I seriously doubt that there will ever be a return to Mass in Latin on a very broad scale-although it's certainly not impossible. However, what is needed, and what I believe Pope Benedict is making a priority, is a reverent approach to Mass and an insistence that the rubrics are followed. On occasion, if for some reason I miss Divine Liturgy, I attend Mass. There is an increasingly smaller number of parishes I will consider attending in my area because of the casual (sometimes even flippant) approach that seems to me to be the norm in so many places. While this casual approach may attract some, I believe that it is not consistent with Catholic teaching concerning worship and I think a return to the degree of reverence that befits worship of God will deepen the lives of those who attend and will ultimately draw more people in. People need spiritual depth and are drawn to that which offers it.
Ryan
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I'm the same way Ryan, except with me it's reversed. The Latin Mass I like to attend is more than twice as far from me as the Eastern Rite church I frequently attend, and all other RC churches near me are major disappointments. Unfortunately, I was told the Eastern parish will have to close in about 5 years if it doesn't start getting new members.
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Forum Keilbasa Sleuth Member
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The current missal is the 1970 Roman Missal? right?
The so-called "tridentine" missal referred to on the great and glorious internet is usually the 1962 Roman Missal.
Novus Ordo is a seemingly wretched term used to negatively reflect the current missal in use by the Roman Catholic Churh.
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 936
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Ebed melech, You wrote, I personally see nothing wrong with maintaining some of
the Latin, like the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei. Beyond a few parts, the Mass becomes virtually unintelligible to the masses. I would agree. I saw this in action with the Novus Ordo in the parish I belonged to before I returnded to my Byzantine heritage. The priest, who served in a mission parish built by Saint Anne Catherine Drexel, had many of the these prayers in Latin. His parish mostly consisted of Navajo Indians. They had no problem with the simple Gregorian chant. The priest was fluent in Latin and Navajo and probably a few other languages. He also adapted to Catholic use a beautiful Navajo blessing way prayer for the thanksgiving meditation after communion. They loved him. Interestingly, he maintained that the Tridentine Mass actually fit more with their culture than the new mass. For one thing, he said that the medicine men in their ceremonies prayed their prayers in quiet. He thought that the Eucharistic prayer in silence was far more in tune with their own culture. PS - By the way, the Navajo, who are referred to as dependent sovereign nation, which precedes the Constitution are not governed by Roe v. Wade. To quote a resolution of their medicine men: "That Navajo traditional laws and custom, established by the Holy People, regard threats and attacks upon the unborn child to be a serious violation of the laws of nature established for five-fingered people and for all Creation... the Navajo world view...regards all life as sacred and...regards the personhood of the child as fully achieved at the point of the child's conception....That Navajo custom and tradition regard all laws foreign to the Navajo people that permit attacks upon the unborn--claim to legalize abortion, for example--as abhorrent to the traditional Navajo world view... Sorry for the digression...
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Joined: Aug 2002
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Fr. Serge,
You would posit that the correct translation is "to God who giveth joy to my youth," right?
As far as someone else saying the Motu Proprio is expected on the Feast of Pope St. Pius X, on April 30th (in the new Roman liturgical calendar), I've heard May 5th much more often (which is this Pope's feast in the traditional calendar, and *ALLEGEDLY* what Pope Benedict told Alice von Hildebrand a couple weeks ago at their private audience).
Logos - Alexis
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It's deja vu all over again...
james
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James,
I don't think so. Cardinal Bertone, the Secretary of State, himself confirmed a week and a half ago that Benedict WILL issue the Motu Proprio concerning the liberalization of the Traditional Rites. The matter as to "if" is settled. The matter as to "when" is not.
Logos - Alexis
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Joined: Jun 2006
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Dear Alex,
"To God Who giveth joy to my youth" is indeed an authentic translation of the LXX - check the Holy Transfiguration Psalter.
Fr. Serge
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