www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Why the translation of the Creed must be corrected

Thank you Father David. I was reading Jaroslav Pelikan's book about the Bible and he states how the Greek Gospels - if translated into Aramaic - revealed a goodnumber of word plays.

Eddie

Why translate the Gospels into Aramaic from the Greek, we already have the Peshitta in the Syriac Church (both Catholic and Orthodox)!

Precisely! And in translating Scripture and Creed, one has a duty to be faithful to the original text, lest we "forget" whence we came and where we are going!

lm

Heh, possibly because the Peshitta is a translation from the Greek?

Is it? I hear some Peshitta-first theorist-scholars speculate the other way...

In any case, the Syro-Chaldo-Indian-Church considers the Peshitta authoritative and binding for their purposes.

The question was about the Creed, not the bible Mr. Hash.

Now that you've turned the topic to your interests I should think you'd have no complaint left.

Mary

Elijamaria. The topic of Bible translations, creed changes, and worship changes have been meshed together in all these threads. if i brought up the bible it was because the Bible IS used in your worship. Jeff - on another thread - has taken the time to answer my questions.

I include my words in this, Mary, because i've seen it happen elsewhere - places where some byzcaths have never witnessed. Can you really speak ONLY about the Creed without mentioning the Bible? are you suggesting thta the universal creeds have no connection with Holy Writ? that the bible and worship exist independently from each other? The issues of translations are similar in all disciplines. There is a commonality in things when they are so intertwined. I learned of how your byzcath worship is basically built on Bible verses! This is something to share with others - not put under a bushel basket or refuse to grow the talents.

I don't have a personal vendetta against you or wish to take everything you write - even honest questions - as a personal insult. We can learn from each other. I would expect the same. somehow - and please correct me if i am wrong - I feel that I have insulted you along the way. Please accept my apology if I have wronged you in any way. I can now imagine that something was written by me that has hurt you dearly. If you need to unload your anger; feel free to unload it on me. i will understand. You are mad ein the image.

Jesus loves you even though you may think no one else does.
Bless you sister!
Eddie

The other day I had some Roman rite friends join me for Divine Liturgy. At the end of liturgy they were bothered by the way we say "we EXPECT the resurrection of the dead..." I have heard others before say that it is a bit presumptous for easterns to demand God let us in heaven. Of course we all know that EXPECT would better be expressed by the word ANTICIPATE. They have the same denotation but different connotations. The point of my story is that if the translators had the idea of clear meaning in the new translation at heart, why would they overlook EXPECT which confuses some and go for US MEN that I personally have NEVER heard a complaint?

Perhaps they got used to the translation of the last 40 years, which is "We look for the resurrection of the dead...", though the Latin is "et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum....". I agree with your view of the meaning: "I look forward to...", meaning "anticipate".

Are your translators trying to "synch up" with our (RC) ICEL latest translation, perhaps?

One common Ruthenian translation in the 1930s WAS "We look for the resurrection of the dead" (this always sounded to me like an ad for a tabloid newspaper...) Remember that the resurrection of the dead is NOT the same as a welcome into the Kingdom of Heaven; both good and evil alike will rise for judgement and either eternal punishment, or eternal reward.

Ruthenian Catholics have been saying "I expect the resurrection of the dead" since before the creation of the ICEL.

Christ is risen!

Jeff

P.S. "Anticipate", of course, has its own potential problems; if we anticipate the general resurrection, does that mean we ourselves will be resurrected first?

Yes, very flat and businesslike. Not to mention that most people like to rattle it off right quick. I have seen a copy of last year's proposed re-translation and I hope they retain the linguistic "speed bumps" that force us to concentrate on what we're "saying/praying".

Indeed Christ is risen!

Michael

I need a little help here. Some parts of the ancient Faith I am fairly good at. Others..........well, that's why I depend on my older and wiser brothers and sisters in the Faith.

I though that the canons of a council were binding and could not be arbitrarily changed. I say this in regards to the inclusive language now in the Nicene Creed. If the Creed was established as part of the council, then how is it okay to change it?

Thanks for your help.

Brother Ed

Is there such a thing as righteous disobedience in the face of error? Again, I speak of the inclusive language of the new Liturgy.

Simply put: can I continue to recite "and for us men" in the Creed, even though our hierarchy has now banned such expression?

I do not wish to be a rebel and I took a vow of obedience on Holy Saturday 6 years ago when I joined the Church, but is that vow first and foremost to the ancient and orthodox praxis of the Liturgy rather than to the decisions of any man?

I do not wish to disrespect our bishops, but I am not exactly happy about this change.

Brother Ed

Brother Ed,

Technically, it's not a change, just a re-translation. The excuse is that in our contemporary usage, too many people will think only males were intended, so if that is not the case, then we need to express it in a way that is clear for them.

I would answer this by saying that it should be clear from the context, and that pursuing this course of action runs the risk of having young people develop the notion that the entire world before the late 20th century was monstrously mysogynistic. In other words, the more we embrace this "modern" manner of speaking, the more foreign the old manner of speaking will become to the next generation.

Oh, well ... let's not forget "In the world you shall have distress. But have confidence. I have overcome the world." (Jn. 16, 33B)


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Figures. No wonder the liberals like the NEA. Keep 'em stupid so that they don't understand linguistics at all, then tell them the Church is a bunch of retarded old white guys with a misogynist axe to grind.

Very effective way to destroy the Church, if it were possible.

Brother Ed