www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Farewell to my brethren

Greetings all,

Glory To Jesus Christ!

I was not offended by Michael�s question. In fact, these issues have crossed my mind also. I am not familiar with the Russian Catholic Church--is there one near Pittsburgh? I have never been inside a Ukrainian Catholic Church. And I would be jubilant if there were a Melkite Catholic Church nearby.

It has been a month since my original post and I have been doing a lot of soul searching. I have not yet come to a decision. I need more discernment. Converting to Holy Orthodoxy is a big decision and I do not want to do it for the wrong reasons. The RDL cause me much anger, and this anger opened the door to a myriad of other passions--like a domino effect. I feel like I have been free falling from the Ladder of Divine Ascent at lightening speed! A series of confessions in conjuction with prayer and contemplation has enabled me to step back and analyze my motives for possible conversion. Orthodoxy may indeed be my final destination, but I must be 100% certain. Mary proposes an issue that is difficult for me--leaving the Church of my baptism. Also, I have always considered it important to be in communion with the bishop of Rome. I am convinced that everybody�s prayers have been extremely beneficial to me, and I beg you all to continue praying for me and my family.

Peace and blessings,
Recluse

While it is a big move indeed, for many of us it was simply a fulfillment of what we believed as Greek/Byzantine Catholics and a spiritual and natural move.

And how does the Orthodox hold the Catholics at bay? There are issues on both sides that we are having troubles answering. So it is unjustly unfair to paint the Orthodox as those who are having the issues, almost a latin catholic perspective. There are HUGE HUGE differences culturally and theological differences between east and west and the way you stated that it was the Orthdoox who have the problem is highly western.

Wow! With this kind of thinking, We'll all be long gone before there is any chance of reunion!

You make it sound like it's a sin to leave the Catholic Church for the Orthodox Church, but not vice versa!

I'm not worried about the re-introduction of intercommunion. That is left to the Holy Spirit through our hiearchs. While is may be important, there is much the Byzantine/Greek Catholics and Orthodox can do together in the mean time.... such as running community outreaches together, carry the Matthew 25 ministries together. Let's just not talk about something that is on the Holy Spirit's time (inter-communion), let's pull together to carry out the ministries of the Gospels, feed the poor, visit the sick and imprisioned, etc............................................... insetead of throwing proverbial darts and wondering when intercommunion may or may not happen.

Christ Is Risen!

Yes. This is an accurate statement for me. I have stated before on this forum that I am somewhat disturbed by Rome's need to define everything. I believe that later doctrines such as purgatory, IC, and Papal Infallibility were not necessary. There are those within the Eastern Catholic Church who would say that "we do not really need to adhere to these doctrines because we are Eastern". There seems to be an unspoken rule that as Eastern Christians, we are not held to the same understandings as the West. This is confusing to me. How can we be in communion with Rome but not be held to the same understandings (wink, wink, nod, nod).

And so my conscience began to cry out, "if you want to be truly Eastern, you must be Orthodox"!

But over the years I had begun to see some of the Latinizations being reversed in our Churches, and a true yearning from the people to reconnect with their Eastern Traditions, and I felt that perhaps I could help in some way--such as teaching children, or entering the deaconate program.

Then it happened--bang--the RDL! I was devastated!

I saw very little need to change the former Liturgy. It was written on the hearts of the people. Suddenly there is division because of the RDL. I began having flashbacks of the Latin Novus Ordo. Our Church was not complaining about sexist language, yet the Liturgy was neutralized. The Creed has more than a dozen changes. "Oblation" is changed to "Anaphora". My parish Church was reduced because all the beautiful antiphons that we sung were eliminated. The music became more complicated. The books are confusing and already beginning to fall apart. Our reformers ostracized us from other Eastern Catholics and Orthodox.

And so here I am again struggling with my pre-RDL thoughts and wondering why the Ruthenian reformers would spend so much time and money on a re-translated Liturgy, when they could have used the time and money to catechize, evangelize, re-introduce matins and vespers, beautify our Churches, etc., etc.

It is so sad for me--it breaks my heart.

And so my discernment continues.

If I had meant to say that, do you not think I am capable of saying that?

You, who worries so deeply about the offensiveness of others, apparently have very little concern for your own. It is offensive to put words in other people's mouths. You hurt your own credibility with this kind of knee-jerk response.

There are Orthodox faithful who have come to me to ask about returning to the Catholic Church, but their grace is so great and their gifts seem so fruitful in Orthodoxy that I beg them to reconsider if they can in good conscience.

In fact I have never called either move a sin. I have said that it is a grave thing to turn away from the Church of your baptism and formally embrace a de facto schism, which is an objectively sinful state of being. I will say that schism is sinful, but I have never said those who convert, either way, are sinners.

I understand that it is easy to react to the voices in your head but I prefer, that when people talk to me, they actually pay some attention to who I am as a person and what I actually say or belive. Otherwise I get to feeling like the wall or the hollow tree stump, or invisible.

Mary

Well I'm not a theologian, but I do not feel like I'm in a grave situation having left the church of my baptism. I'm in a church that has grace, has recognized my baptism, has apostolic origin, and valid sacraments.

My point was you make it sound like the Orthodox church is the church in error, and Rome has done nothing wrong in Its history. Promulgation of the RDL proves that they can and do err.

That statement is very interesting for me because it describes the concerns I had before I started my way into Orthodoxy. It was somewhat emphazied for me because I was being looked at as a possible candidate for the Holy deaconat and so my question was how could I be in the Holy Orders representing the church but not beleive in all its teachings and doctrines. That became then a no-brainer and I left.

I still have dear friends in the B/C. I feel somewhat releaved from these sort of struggles with revisions of liturgies or simply not to know what to expect when I visit another parish. That is now a given: I can expect the same structure and wonderful worship in every parish and still appreciate the different local customs. However, and you are of course aware of that: your struggles will shift. I am struggling with different things now and they are all related to my sinfullnes. But I still think that these struggles in the end will draw me closer to God ...

I guess my lessons learned is: a christian life is simply not easy and will never be easy. But it is important to be in the right spot to get the best help in these struggles (AKA Holy mysteries etc.etc.)

Amen, my friend. It sounds as if our paths are similar. I had a strong pull to the Diaconate, but that has diminished. My discernment continues but the pull toward Holy Orthodoxy does not cease. The deciding factor may be my young child. And here may be the crux of the dilemma.

If I am not completely confident in all the doctrines of the Catholic Church--if I feel that many areas of the RDL are in error--if I feel that a neutralized Liturgy is a grave error--then how can I raise my child in such an atmosphere?

At the same time, I am hesitant to leave the Church of my baptism. Why does my family have to be re-chrismated? Does this mean that my confirmation in the eighth grade in the RCC was not valid? Does it mean that my baby's chrismation in the BCC was not valid?

I am being torn apart. But this is what the Lord wants for me at this time. How do I know that my discernment is true?

Perhaps all of this is a gift in some way? I will trust the Lord for answers.

Recluse,

The things you have shared with us are wise.

I too, as a Byzantine Catholic, have struggled with second millennium dogmatic definitions that originate in the west, and these have made me consider Orthodoxy. Yet, union with Peter seems to me to be a decisive issue.

I am not as gifted as others on this forum expressing myself, so let me just say in layman's terms that the papal ministry of the first millennium seems to be greater than what most Orthodox seem willing to allow, and yet, not as grand as what most ardent Catholics assert.

I too am disappointed with some of the changes in the RDL. I just hate the phrase "holy things to holy people," it just seems so un-poetic compared to "holy things to the holy." The former seems a totally unnecessary change.

In my choice of scripture translations, I find myself choosing the older more traditional translations, like the KJV, Douay and RSV. I do not like most inclusive language. I have gotten to be a cranky conservative when it comes to language issues. So I empathize there.

As an Orthodox friend once cautioned me, one should not change churches, especially when we are talking about the Orthodox and Catholic Churches, like one would change a shirt. Recluse, you seem to be really wrestling with this, and you are to be commended for that.

I in fact have looked at the Orthodox church, and one priest I met with practically tried to talk me out of it- not because he would not welcome a convert, but because he wanted me to be sure I was making the changes for the right reason. He cautioned me that some of the problems I perceive in the Catholic church might appear in a different form in the Orthodox church.

I say to you Recluse, be in prayer, and I am sure our Lord will guide you to make the right decision. I will support either decision you make, to stay or go.

The Orthodox in my mind are my brethren. I cannot dismiss the historic reality of our schism, but I am one of those who believe that the Orthodox and Catholic have so much that is substantial in common that there is very little that separates us. In my locale, I fellowship as much as possible with the Orthodox, only refraining from the Orthodox sacraments, which I am not able to receive.

Yes. This is an issue with me also. Somehow, I innately feel that communion with the See of Peter is important.
This is my impression also.
I cannot agree more. I am disturbed by this wording. My wife and I were discussing yesterday the lack of poetry in this change.

I don't suppose that I have to tell you how cranky I am when it comes to inclusive language.
Thank you Lance. I will wrestle as long as it takes. I was born and raised Latin Catholic and canonically changed to Ruthenian Catholic. If I am to be accepted into Holy Orthodoxy, I need to be sure that it will be the last phase of my journey (as far as Church membership not spiritually of course).

I was given the same caution.
Thank you my friend.
Your words have inspired me, Lance--you are wise indeed. Years ago, as a Latin Catholic, I did not know of the existence of the Eastern Catholic Church, and I thought that the Orthodox Church was a cult. I did not know that there was such a word as "schism".

Now, I am deeply pained and thoroughly scandalized by the separation of East and West.

So much can change in such a short period of time.

Many years,
Recluse

another similarity. I asked the same question to my priest when he prepared me what would be involved in the receiving into Holy Orthodoxy. (next to renouncing, confession and chrismation). He answered in a very typical orthodox manner: That is what the bishop wants me to do while receiving roman catholic
Well we had a followup discussion about that and there was one point that my priest pointed out: Chrismation (as with all sacraments) is not so much being looked at in the terms of valid or not valid. Especially with chrismation even an orthodox person could receive that sacrament multiple times. A person is being chrismated everytime if that person fell severly out of the church (basically excommunicated him/herself) but is now repenting and returning to the church. That is how Orthodoxy looks at a convert: someone who is repenting and will now be received back into the church. And that is done by chrismation - strengthened with the gift of the Holy Spirit.
And again then there is always the attitued: the bishop says so!
I learned to live with such an attitude and find it meanwhile more beneficial. Why should I worry my little self about all these details when to do what, when my archpastor has the job to take care of all these things. So I have to trust that he knows best.
(and yes - I still can think for myself but sometimes I choose not to ...lol)

That is different for me - or maybe not. For me it is important to be in communion with all canonical sees - the see of Peter would be one of them. And it pains me that we are not in communion. However I don't see any additional or specific (for the lack of better terms) benefit to be in communion with the see of Peter. My local church is the see of Dallas and the South with my Archpastor Dmitri. That puts me in communion with the whole church.
I guess I am really a very strong advocate for the equality of all bishops. (no offense intended)

Ah, thank you for this explanation.
Sometimes obedience is the only way!

Yes, I understand this. And that is why it is such a big part of my struggle. Am I biased because of a life long familiarity with the Pope of Rome? What about the other four Sees? I comprehend that the papacy had a primacy of honor when the Church was one--but as Lance said, the papacy had more of a role than some within Orthodoxy will admit, and less of a role than some within Catholicism will admit. My attachment to the papacy is one of the last discernment hurdles--I cannot seem to get a clear answer.