www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Eastern theology is heretical?

Hello,

Just last night I had a discussion with a Roman Catholic who converted from Protestantism a few months ago, and he told me:


He does have many naive opinions, I think, because he has made friends with some Latin Rite Traditionalists. The problem I see with his statement is that he necessarily implies that he is holier than the Pope, since the Pope knows our situation and respects it. He is new to the faith, and I don't want to startle him any further because I fear that I'll say something utterly belittling. I'm just incredibly offended by his perception of himself as someone who has any authority to speak (over the opinion of the Pope) like this about the Eastern Rites.

I'm giving him the link to this thread on Byzcath, so you may type your responses as though you are addressing him directly. His name is Jeremiah. But be nice to him (I've had trouble doing so.)

So, what specifically in eastern theology is heretical?

Joe

Dear Joe,

When Bl. Basil Velichkovsky C.Ss.R. visited a Polish bishop (as he writes in the memoirs published by the Ukrainian Redemptorists), the Polish bishop told him point blank that what the Pope is doing by promoting the "Eastern Rites" is wrong since they follow "schismatic rites" such as the three-finger Sign of the Cross et al.

He was serious, Bl. Basil writes . . .

Perhaps the individual cited above has been reading the Byzantine Forum and so has read of untoward comments some misguided Forumites have made about St Augustine and St Thomas Aquinas?

Certainly, such talk would be more than sufficient to turn devoted Latin Catholics off and come to regard certain EC's as heretics.

And I'm not pointing any fingers at any EC in particular here . . .

Alex

Actually Alex, I have to thank you for that comment.
I have been struggling with some unpleasant feelings towards people who are bashing Augustine and Acquinas. I discussed this with my Byzantine priest and suggested that those making such statements did not know any better. It has all been quite puzzling to me, how RC generally except Byzantine feasts and saints but somehow that doesn't go both ways....

Holly
I could be interpretting this incorrectly but based on what some of you have said, I don't think that I am.

Dear Hopal,

I'm probably the worst offender in that regard - or I'm perceived to be by some.

Sts. Augustine and Thomas Aquinas are eminent Doctors of the Western Church, to be sure. They have much that is of immense spiritual value to all Christians. And they should not be established as standards by which other Catholic traditions are to be judged.

To "bash" them or any Church Father is simply wrong and unCatholic. To bash any aspect of any Catholic tradition is wrong. When EC's are sometimes seen to speak disparagingly of this or that Latin tradition or teaching, it is because they are reacting against a Latin standard that has somehow been established over them for them to aspire to as "proof positive" that they really are "Catholic."

When Latin Catholics say that (and I've been slammed for this here and not without some justification), the issue is less that EC's have a problem with the Latin Church but with Latinization. To be against Latinization is to be against Latin traditions in our Church where they do not belong. But since we have always been a minority, we have always had to struggle against Latinization in one form or another. The Latin Church has never had a problem with "creeping Byzantinization" and the like because of its sheer size in comparison.

Alex

I revere St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas as great intellects, devout Christians, and significant interpreters of the Tradition. That being said, I also have significant disagreements with them on a number of points and I don't think that Orthodox can fully embrace a straightforward reading of their theology. But, does this mean in the mind of some Latin Catholics that Byzantines who disagree with Augustine or Aquinas on some issues are heretics?

Joe

I would like to say that I know many, many traditional Roman Catholics who greatly revere the East and her liturgical patrimony, both within and without the Catholic Church. I don't know any who despise it and summarily refer to all Eastern theology as "heretical," although I suppose some do exist.

Generally speaking, traditional Catholics greatly respect other Christians who've held fast to their liturgical and theological patrimony,

Alexis

Alexis,

And while some Orthodox also hold traditional Latin Catholicism to be heretical, many of us don't, but also hold the Latin tradition in the greatest respect, despite our disagreements over some matters.

Joe

I consider the issue here one of ignorance, really. Jeremiah seems to be under the impression that Eastern Catholics would be willing to identify Latin theology as heretical.

There is a serious difference between this and what we stand for. Because I am an Eastern Catholic, I consider Eastern Patristic Tradtition a theological priority over Medieval Latin Theology. But although I disagree with Aquinas on matters such as Divine Simplicity, the order of theological knowledge, and Old Testament theophanies, it is because I consider both the Patristic and the Scholastic different expressions of one faith. I would NOT call Aquinas a heretic because he is a Doctor of the same Church of which I am a member. But Basil is also a doctor of this Church, and I oppose those who believe that to be Catholic is to be a Scholastic.

I am Eastern Orthodox, not Eastern Catholic, and I would also not call Aquinas a heretic. To me, the term heresy should really be reserved for those who deny fundamental creedal articles of the faith decided by the seven ecumenical councils. If every potentially erroneous theological opinion was heresy, then who wouldn't be a heretic?

This is why I believe that the substance of the Orthodox faith is preserved in both the Orthodox and Roman Catholic communions. But, being Orthodox, I personally believe that this patrimony is more clearly and distinctly preserved from any theological errors. That is a personal opinion of mine and it is a far cry from the view that "the other guy" who doesn't agree with me is a heretic.

I'm glad that you started this thread. Because, I do think that we need to discuss these terms like "heretic" so that we understand how we are using them. We also need to be careful about the words we use to label one another. God bless.

Joe

Jeremiah has many times inadvertently spoken against not only Orthodoxy distinctives but also Eastern distinctives as well. He has criticized Eastern Spirituality as an incoherent Buddhist Christian mysticism, and he is under the impression that interpretting Original Sin differently than Augustine has is an objective heresy.

Thanks, Joe.

Joe,

Well good! But I must say I disagree with you over far fewer things than I do with many of my fellow Catholics, Eastern AND Western!

Maybe we should start our own church. Church of Georgia, perhaps (the state, not the nation).

Alexis

I think a withdrawal of this offensive statement and an apology to the Orthodox members of this Forum are in order here.

Ryan

I agree with Athanasius.