www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy How many have left?

You can look at it that way or you could say that the larger parishes and cathedral parishes might have once held over a hundred, while the smaller parishes had fifty to eighty.

So that when you find eighty in the cathedral, you might now find 20 in a smaller rural parish....or 7. And some of the ones who have gone left this year because their parish churches were closed and they had to go somewhere...else.

Mary

I know that while we lost some regular parishioners at my former Ruthenian parish (in Pittsburgh, literally), it seemed we gained quite a few NEW ones -- equal to or exceeding the number who stopped coming.

I think old ones left because we got a new priest, and they weren't too keen on him. It had nothing to do with the RDL.

I left, too, but that has nothing to with the either the new priest OR the RDL, but with the Holy Spirit.

My last response was not meant to address the issue wether or not the Orthodox are part of the Church of Christ. I was responding to Father Serge's assertion that someone who is raised as a Catholic can knowingly reject the faith, join the Orthodox Church and be "justified" in doing so. Is that not a mortal sin? Are Catholic doctrines on the papacy and other things meaningless?

I don't prEtend to be any more Catholic than Pope Eugene IV.

What dtstan51 has posted is a bit messy theologically.

Someone whose conscience and heart knew that the Catholic Faith is the fullness of the Gospel would not likely leave the Catholic Church for another Church.

Someone whose conscience and heart knew that the Orthodox Faith is the fullness of the Gospel would not likely leave the Orthodox Church for another Church.

Someone whose conscience and heart leads them from one Church to another cannot be considered as �knowingly reject[ing] the faith�.

If one wishes to be very Latin in theology, for something to be a �mortal sin� the person needs to 1) know the sin they are about to commit is serious, 2) reflect that the sin they are going to commit is serious and 3) commit the sin willingly.

One can certainly argue that it is objectively wrong to leave communion with Rome for Orthodoxy.

One cannot argue that to do so is committing a mortal sin. It is quite possible that the conditions of heart and conscience are such that it is not a sin at all.

And then there are circumstances which form consciences and hearts � people sometimes do get hurt in the Church and their conscience honestly leads them away.

There are many places in official Church documents that explain this clearly.

Yes, Catholic Teaching is important. But if someone who comes to honestly believe that the fullness of the Gospel is found in Orthodoxy and is led by his conscience and heart to become Orthodox one cannot accuse them of committing a mortal sin.

But this is off topic....

Did Mohammed or Joseph Smith know with conscience and heart that their revelations were true? If a person would argue they did then would that then be condemnation of Christianity?

If they did not operate with full conscience and heart, then did they knowingly reject what they thought was the correct faith?

If hypothetically, they knowingly rejected what they perceived was the correct faith then did they not commit a grave sin? If hypothetically, they did create a grave sin is this not a similar correlation to the previous situation?

Just hypothetically speaking of course�


Of course, we can't answer these questions only G_d can. But it does make for interesting conversations. BTW, how many angels can fit on the head of a pin?

Ray seems to be equating leaving Catholicism for Orthodoxy as the equivalent of rejecting Christ to become Muslim or Mormon. (?) Very odd, if that is what he is doing.

I always recommend sticking with the actual teachings of the Catholic Church. Unless you personally know what is in the heart of another, charity demands that you assume that they go where their heart honestly calls them.

This applies even to those who appear to reject Christ (and become Muslim or Mormon). It is possible that they never knew Christ in the first place and saw shadows were we see Savior. Our job as individual Christians is not to condemn and walk away happy but to let Christ's witness in us be so bright that such individuals will see Him in us and embrace Him fully.

God�s mercy is great indeed.

Christ is Risen!

Despite various posts requesting that posters stay on topic here, this thread seems to be constantly wandering off-topic. A number of issues have been raised and are apparently being discussed elsewhere on the forum. You are welcome to join in the discussion on those threads. Threads that are wandering off topic in this section face closure from now on. I am thus closing this thread.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator