www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Orthodox Church of Greece to Allow Deaconesses

Dear Matthew,

I seem to recall reading a few years ago, that a study was being made in the archives of ancient Monasteries in Southern Italy, on the role of deaconess' in the Orthodox Church. That study probably led to Arch. Christodoulos' decision.

Zenovia

Dear Matthew,

I always have a vial of holy oil of Saint Nektarios, and have used it innumerable times. It has never failed to restore the health of a loved one of mine. I need only apply it with faith.

Zenovia

Matthew- women read the Epistle in the Byzantine Catholic Churches too; and I thought in the Orthodox Churches [I think one of our Orthodox posters said that].
I know the West is more into defining things, sometimes to a ridiculous degree. Nevertheless it is obviously not all vague and mystical. I mean, can a woman consecrate the Eucharist? No? But it is all a Mystery, is it not?
Obviously there is a distinction between ordinary anointing and the sacramental anointing that only a priest can do [and which the Deacon in the latin Church cannot do]. Part of serious dialogue is respecting the different ways of doing theology and expressing the Faith; can you not reassure your Catholic friends that what we are talking about is not creeping feminism, but a return to ancient practice? I am very willing to grant this, if certain distinctions are made.

Dear Father Stephanos,

In your opinion what is the status of Coptic Catholic Churches who have "ordained" Deaconesses that are in full communion with the Bishop of Rome? You could not argue that it is an ecclesiastical error, as Rome is familiar with the deaconess tradition as Rome understands it. Since there are Sainted Deaconesses in heaven why would you express your dismay or oppose Deaconesses now. Would that be consistent and in accordance with the line of reasoning conveyed by Aquinas or Augustine. Deaconesses are welcome in heaven (triumphant) but not on earth (militant), heaven and earth are full of thy glory comes to my mind. Are not all of Saints glorified within as well as beyond the realm of space and time? In the Orthodox Church we often paint the Saints on the walls "Guide the hands of thine unworthy servant so that I may worthily and perfectly portray thine Icon, that of thy Mother, and all of the Saints, for the glory, joy and adornment of thy Holy Church." I do realize that Pope has made it quite clear in short no woman Deaconesses. What does this mean? Could you present your theological thinking and position in a bit more depth? I think you are going to have to change your thinking on this matter, perhaps I'm wrong.

Waiting patiently.


Dear Daniel,

We are merely men and woman as you know so what we might individually think in a singular way may not be correct all the time, hence we have to trust in the Orthodox Church and remain obedient to what the Orthodox Church teaches regarding such matters. Sometimes the Orthodox and the Latin's do not agree on everything and are not teaching or doing the same things. In short, we are not of one theological mind on many significant matters. Hence you and our other Byzantine Catholic friends are sometimes in a strange or uncomfortable position. As a Byzantine Catholic what would your way of "doing theology on this matter be?" I mean if it was necessary for Byzantine Catholics in communion with Rome to have Deaconesses and the Bishop of Rome said no what do you do? As you know iconography is considered to be theology in color, could you venerate an Icon of a new Orthodox Deaconess and what would that mean to you? How could the Latins accept the glorification of a Deaconess when it denies the ordination of Deaconesses?

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

Two comments:

1. There ARE Latin deaconesses (carefully kept under lock and key, but they continue to exist), so venerating an icon of a sainted deaconess should not pose any problem, and
2. Talk of Holy Oil, if one writes to the monastery on Aegina, they will send the petitioner a vial of Holy Oil from the lamp which burns over the relics of Saint Nectarios. He is known for healings.

Incognitus

For what it's worth, when I was younger I had a book of Saints that described one of them, it might have been St. Thecla or St. Apollonia I don't rember well, as a deaconess so I don't think venerating them has been difficult for (Western) Catholics in the past nor will be in the future.

Isn't this still mainly a problem of vague or overlapping terminology? Maybe "ordination" is simply a broader, vaguer term in the Orthodox Church than it is in the Catholic Church, where today it's restricted to conferring holy orders, even if in the past we used the term just as broadly.

So maybe the Orthodox are comfortable saying 'ordination' in this situation because for them the word encompasses many things whereas Catholics might prefer 'blessing' because it might be more specific from their point of view and doesn't imply holy orders. Does this make sense?

I think a critical point here is that the Orthodox are not planning on ordaining female deacons. I realize deaconesses existed in the early centuries. What may cause alarm among many, is the track record after Vatican II of the Latin Church trying to resurrect long extinct practices that are no longer organic developments. That has created havoc in the Latin Church. Something that is extinct can't develop and it may have become extinct for very good reasons. I think some are cautious and wonder what the end result of deaconesses will be. It seems those with an agenda often hijack harmless things and subvert them to their own ends, such as the feminist agenda for women priestesses - no apology for that term, since priest is a male term in English.

Incognitus,

Would you be so kind as to elaborate on the reality of Latin deaconesses?

Logos Teen

Dear Friends,

I've been reading this thread with interest and would just like to get some things straight . . .

"Deaconesses" are NOT female deacons - they are a separate, non-sacerdotal rank - this is what everyone means when they say "deaconess" right?

It is not the same as "priestess" - correct?

Alex

Dear Alex:

I don't know, but everytime I hear people talking about persons or things suffixed with "ess," eventually it slithers down hill!

Amado

That suffix always makes me go YEUCH !!

We have such ugly terms as clerkess - a female secretarial worker .

And before anyone makes any comments - I am NOT a feminist - it's just that it's a particularly clumsy, horrid sounding, word.

I will admit though that I have met an Anglican deaconess during the 50s when I was doing nursing - the hospital had a full time Anglican Chaplain as well - but Sr was on the wards a great deal - and she did a lot of visiting so he could look after the 'Sacramental' side of things - I suppose you could call that the social side of it - now that is where there is a need for deaconesses - it is a Service to all.

Pity the original article quoted was in such appalling English - there must be many Greeks who can translate better than that

Anhelyna - who admits she "lost the heid there - just a wee bit "

It appears the Church in the East, and the Church in the West face, and have always faced different problems. If we would stop and consider, or rather 'study' the problems that the two branches are confronting now, and might have been confronted with in the past, we will be able to understand why certain positions have been taken.

I make it a point of 'always' accepting the viewpoint of the other Church, and thereby always giving one the benefit of a doubt. In that sense, maybe female (pagan) priestesses might have been a common practice in the West. Certainly considering all the pagan traditions that became part and parcel of Christianity, the RC might have been fearful that female priestesses, (with pagan overtones), might enter the Church.

Basically, it could be the same cultural mentality that progressed today into our modern feminist movement.

We Orthodox tend to have a grave fault. We see things from our own prospective, and become fearful that the Western Church is overstepping its bounds. By them doing so, we see the RC as tending towards eventual heresies.

Then again, maybe the RC has the same fault.

Zenovia

This thread is a joke right? April's fools day???

Feeling kind of fiesty today, so here's the order for the Ordination of a Female Deacon [anastasis.org.uk] .

Priest Thomas

Oh wow Fr Thomas - it seems to me you have just lit the blue touch paper - I'm going to stand back quickly