www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Farewell to my brethren

Thank you corsair. I know that I am not insane. And administrator is not saying that either. Administrator is saying that if I react to something without well thought out arguments and solid facts--if I react to something out of emotion--then those who oppose my position will write me off as a madman. I understand this.

I am so vehemently against inclusive language, that sometimes my diatribe is misguided.

Having said that, I must disappear into my poustinia and pray for mercy. I am not the one who will judge those who tamper with our sacred Liturgy. For now, my vocation is to pray.

Blessings to you,
Recluse

Thanks. I was focused on Recluse and must have just blinked through the closing notice.

Sorry, John. Sorry Father Anthony.

Mary

I'm with you, Recluse. I'm already out the door and headed for the OCA, too... and the RDL is just now being implemented in my Byzantine Ruthenian parish. When I walked in the OCA church, I was surprised to find another family from the Byzantine parish was already there ahead of me. Others, too, are talking of fleeing the RDL.

In discussing this with one well-travelled, well-informed gentleman in my former church, his remark was sage: "It's nice that we have a choice." By which he meant that there are in our immediate area two OCA, one Greek, one Serbian and one Macedonian-Bulgarian churches. Unfortunately, no ACROD or ROC/ROCOR churches, which would have been the logical choices.

The thought keeps going through my mind that we would not be going through all of this if the Ruthenian Church were not in bed with Rome, and if half our clergy were not bi-ritual (Roman) priests...

Like Domilsean, I will miss most of all the wonderful, God-loving people of my Byzantine parish. But friendships do not salve a troubled conscience.

-- pravoslavna

It is nice to have a choice, and to be able to freely move to a church where one feels at home and spiritually sound.

I love this line. It is so true! Thank you.

Recluse and others,

Had you considered switching to the Melkites, UGCC, Russian Catholic (if they are near you), or others?

Why or why not?

When one finds refuge from the storms of chaotic Protestantism within the arms of the Orthodox Catholic Church one ceases troubling oneself about less drastic matters. I know the litany of issues that seem to bedevil the two lungs but from my perspective there is no good reason for Orthodoxy and Catholicism to be separate. I'm thankful to be home.

CDL

Recluse,

I know I mentioned this on a prior reply on this thread, but I want to encourage you to stay involved in our on-line Byzantine Forum community, even though you are moving from the Metropolitan Ruthenian Church to the Orthodox Church. We need the voices of our Orthodox friends.

Blessings,

Lance

Are you asking him for the logical/analytical reason why he didn't join the other various (UGGC, Melkites..) churches around him?
Or are you demanding and explanation as to why he went to the Orthodox and "left" catholicism?
If it is the latter, I would not think he has any responsibility to explain his reasoning at all unless he initiated the conversation.

It would seem to me that you think you have some organic right now to reply in his stead. I find that equally as interesting as the initial question.

Mary

I think Michael_Thoma is asking a reasonable question here. It is a question I might have thought to ask out of curiosity, if nothing else. I do not discern any ill will toward the Orthodox in this question.

what is an organic right?
-If he is a christmated Orthodox brethren I do in fact have a responsibility to stick up and care for my brother in Christ, as if he is now a full member of the Orthodox Church we share in the Body and Blood of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, we are united in Christ, brothers.
-Many of us who have 'doxed have indeed suffered some negative responses and almost downright pushy responses from online and in the real world Catholics that find our moves anything but positive. I just want to make sure that none of us who have 'doxed, who are going to 'dox or who are thinking of 'doxing do not get patrionized in anyway.
I feel that if any personal questions of a more private matter are to be asked they could also be done via private message. Perhaps I got the sense of a question that fished for public humiliation or a call out to see why Recluse would leave and have him explain his motives pubically when he does not have to. It is between Recluse, God, and his family.
Oh and one more thing, you must realize that the sense of individuality we have in our protestant American culture is not a historical aspect of Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy and Catholicism historically and should continue to focus on the collective and not individuality ( a definite american trait).
Often I hear and see WAY too much individualistic tendencies when it comes to religion.
Just as the question as if I didn't have the right to stick up and defend Recluse, it is collective, I am not answering for him I am merely coming to the defense of him.
Also, this individualistic tendency of americans is also demonstrated in the overbearing conversion stories of many former protestants to Orthodoxy (for example) or any church shopping.
When we start to talk about finding parishes or churches that fit OUR needs and make us FEEL good, then we are showing our individualism. We see this selfish, man-centered indivualism when people care more about themselves, making themselves feel better, come to church, feel good, leave and do not support the community (which goes beyond dropping a $50 in the collection plate). Look at the protestant movements for example and how they constantly seek to find a place or interpret scripture to make themselves feel good, almost like shopping for a car, and I see this with Catholics and Orthodox as well. So we have seen the protestant/american based individualism bleed into our collective Christian communities, what is good for me? What makes me feel good, what gives me the most satisfaction, etc.. a focus on self and not the community, putting yourself before others. These are totally opposite of the very nature and basic principles of Christianity.

Christianity is a brotherhood, a team, a community. There are individuals and we all have individual needs, however we collectively take care of each other (or we should start doing so). There is no "I" in Christianity per se. While the individual is important, we are to others before ourselves, to be servants and worry more about a brother's needs than ours.
Rights? Rights in the American sense of individualistic and "me-ness" do not really mesh completely with Christianity. American priniciples are based on rugged individualism (so much so that in many places neighbours never talk) and eveything is man-centered. In Christianity, while we focus on the individual, his Theosis, we put (if we aren't we need to start doing so)more emphasis on the community and the collective body of Christ, the Church. Who is that body of Christ, the church? Not the building but the collective faithful who receive the sacraments together, and who come together as one through the Eucharist and living the Gospels.

Calm down everyone.

I wasn't asking in an accusatory tone.

I have stated before that I too have 6 toes in Catholicism and 4 in Orthodoxy (although not of the Eastern variety, but the Oriental).

The reason I ask is this - in my mind, as of today the one thing that we do lose when 'leaving' Catholicism (whether Melkite, Ruthenian, Syriac, Maronite, etc) for Orthodoxy (whether Eastern or Oriental) is that unity we had even between Byzantines, Syriacs, Indians, Copts, Armenians, Greeks, Russians, etc. If Recluse 'doxes to the OCA and I to the Syriac or Indian Church we will both be Orthodox and still not in Communion with each other, even though we were as Catholics. (Of course I long for that reunion as well!!)

I do love the Orthodox Churches, I especially love the Syriac/Indian Orthodox Church, and I most especially love the Catholic variety of the same Church.

Please excuse the initial miscommunication.

As to the big "WHY" to Recluse - he initially stated that the 'anthropos' issue in the Ruthenians "finally tipped him over..." - the question begs, why not tip over to the Melkites, Ukrainians, Russians, etc who have retained the "proper wording" if that is the case.

Probably would have been a more pleasant experience to simply wait to see what your brother had to say and wait to see whether or not he actually needed to be defended quite so stridently.

I have cautioned some here to be more circumspect about their motives for leaving communion with the Catholic Church and becoming Orthodox.

It is not the easy "slide" that some would like to make it seem. It is breaking communion with the Church of one's baptism and that is not something to be taken lightly.

However much I deplore it and refuse to acknoweldge it as often as possible spiritually, theologically and ligurgically, we are in de facto schism and it is Orthodoxy that holds her Catholic brothers and sisters at bay, not the other way around. Not any more.

Mary

Amen, Mary. While some are more open than others, I completely agree with your assessment here.

And OP needs to bring the teperature down a degree or two. I thought Michael's question was a legitimate one as well.

Gordo