www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy A Morning at the RDL (an RDL Review)

Ah, so this is the case of skipping the Church Slavonic text and using the Greek Text! I didn't know Rome's 1941 Ruthenian Recension was traslated into Greek! I knew the Liturgical Commission is very Hellenicentric and Slavophobic! !

Christos Anesti!

(no Greek Translation except maybe Certezopolis)

Ung--

My parish--way out in the hinterlands of the diocese, alternates three settings of Anhel vopijashe during Pascha, one is prostopinije in English (cantored), one is prostopinije in Slavonic (Fr. Bobak's 4 part choral setting), and the third in English (choral setting by M. Balakirev). If we did not do it in Slavonic people would be outraged!

If find it incredible that more parishes don't do this in Slavonic! Especially in the Pittsburgh area.

John

Both of our parishes in the Binghamton, New York area sing this in Slavonic as well as in English.

Jeff

That is the million dollar question!

It's much harder to think outside the box. Just do what we've always done, I guess. I think the laity have a few ideas that could be tapped into. Maybe they're not used to the laity being educated. Think about that one.

Carole, you read, but did not understand. Pacification requires words which lead to inaction--I gave you something actionable. What you do with it is up to you.

Look, there's no question over fragmentation in Latin Liturgy--there's VOLUMES of experience there on WHAT NOT TO DO. But all one has to do is knock and they just may find a common way to deal with it and survive it verses breaking away as Roman's did by th thousands after VII.

Here's what I know...

As a 20 year military veteran, the lesson of learning from your comrade's mistakes in combat comes in quite useful when mortars start flying in and tracer's whiz and pop past your head because some Muslim wants you dead. In this regard, it's oft best to learn from another's experience before one learns it the hard way on their own. I'm not saying you'll find all or even any of the answers, but I do think that you may find some common experience and perhaps some productive discussion on how to deal with it in a better way than the Latin's have.

If you've a better solution (to deal with change aside from obvious prayer) then by all means promote it--I think that's what people are looking for here after all.

Peace be with you.

Mark.

Mark.

We have also begun to use the new RDL book. I am young and patient, I think.

One of my children have told me "You say we continue to drive more than 1/2 hour to go to church to keep our traditions alive (when there are Orthodox & RC churches less than 10 minutes away) and now our church has changed." and also "They say two opposite things to us -1. That we are going back to the correct and "old" language and the way songs are sung, but also -2. We need to use the (vernacular) language of our country and revise some of the wording. We can't use Slavonic (which we all love and brag about), so we have changed in that way, but we have to change back to the revised translation." It confuses me even writing about it.

Pretty smart for a 14 year old. I agree whole heartedly about evangelization. We need more people more than anything so that my children have a chance at living near (or close enough) to a Byzantine Catholic Church and no more are closed. There are so many churches that are appealing to youth with a lot of activities to keep them coming. It is too easy to get caught up in the excitement that some of these other mega churches have to offer. We rely mostly on our family & keeping traditions alive. We have put the "burden" on our children to do this and keep them interested in continuing by telling them how special the traditions are. My kids REALLY like Slavonic. They feel special knowing and singing it. At home we sing Slavonic Christmas Carols, Christos voskrese at Easter & Mnohaja l'ita for Birthdays.

More and more Spanish language is heard in RC churches with their own mass times, in Spanish only. Why have they changed to appeal to the increased immigration if we are to use the language of the country we live in?

Could someone please direct me to a place where it states the all of the "all inclusive" language we have changed to?

Thanks for the help.

Dear HartsContent,

There are essentially two "inclusive language" changes in the new Divine Liturgy text:

1. Forms of the Greek philanthrop- ("lover of man", or "who loves man" - in the old translation, "Lover of mankind", but really meaning both individual men and all men) - in Slavonic, celovikol'ubce - are consisently rendered "lover of us all" or "who loves us all" throughout.

2. In the Creed, "for us men and for our salvation" is now "for us and for our salvation."

In the Beatitudes (formerly omitted in our service books, and included in the new book), the reward of the peacemakers is "they shall be called children of God." I don't know if there was a previous "official" text for the Beatitudes, and even some older Catholic Bibles has "children of God", so whether this is "inclusive language" is probably a matter of what one is looking for.

I've used quite a bit of the new book, and have asked here repeatedly, and no one has reported any other examples of "inclusive language" in the new book.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

P.S. The Music Commission is preparing a small hymnal with our traditional hymns (most of the ones in the old Levkulic book, for example), with text and music, in both English and Slavonic; as well as the Slavonic for the commonly sung liturgical hymns of the Divine Liturgy (Holy God, the Cherubic Hymn, etc.)

[quote=Monomakh]



I grew up listening to everything in Slavonic and thankfully CD and tape players were invented so I can still hear Slavonic once in a while.


Monomakh: I have been searching forever for a Slavonic recording of the Divine Liturgy. Would you please tell me where I might get a copy? thank you

Father Keleher's book "Studies on the Byzantine LIturgy - 1 - The Draft Translation: A Response to the Proposed Recasting of the Byzantine-Ruthenian Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom" lists over a dozen examples of inclusive language.

A cursory comparison of the texts for the liturgical year in the new book to the Levkulic book show dozens of examples.

All received Catholic, and as far as I know Orthodox, bible translations of this particular pricope from Matthew refer to the peacemakers becoming the sons of God.

It is at very least an inane circumstance to have the liturgy and the received Scriptural language differ so dramatically.

The change is a foolish and unnecessary accretion.

Also, the poetry, of a once powerfully poetic text, is destroyed. All the imagery is lost on the people, as one stumbles through the discordant metre, and then fights to recover the mood, through to the end of the hymn.

A glaring example of what I call "junk" translation.

Mary

Attention true faith - in searching for recordings of liturgical music in Church-Slavonic, try the Musica Russica web-site. Last time I looked, they had some nice CDs.

Fr Serge

Once again the MCI is duplicating my work after I've already done it. First, I started harmonizing the new book, only to find that a choir book was already in the works. Then I put together a sheet with Slavonic liturgy parts, only to find you are doing the same.

I'd be glad to send my version to you if you want. It follows the blue cantor prostopinje book, except for the Our Father, for which I followed the melody our longest-tenured cantors sing.

Dear 1 Th:

Could you please post or PM me with a few? I have asked repeatedly here of those who claim that "everything" was rewritten to use "inclusive language" what was changed OTHER than "lover of mankind / lover of us all", and the rewording of the creed - and no one had come up with any.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff

Actually, to the best of my knowledge, the Music Commission is NOT planning to provide a text with music for the Slavonic - if only because there are HUNDREDS of settings extant, and the Sokol blue book for the cantor is still in print anyway. What will be provided is a section in the hymnal with the Slavonic text of the "main hymns" of the Divine Liturgy, on the assumption that people will learn them to whichever melodies are in use in their parish.

Having said that, please sent what you have! I have been hampered for some years by the fact that the principal collector of Slavonic music for the Byzantine Catholic worship has told me that his work is under copyright, and copies must be purchased from him directly.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski