www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Orthodox Church of Greece to Allow Deaconesses

Yes Alex, and that iconographer you are always defending, Robert Lentz OFM, has done icons of them [and also King David and Jonathan]

I can't even begin to understand anyone implying that David and Jonathan were gay. I grew up viewing their relationship as what a perfect friendship should be. Anyone would be extremely blessed to have a friendship like that.

Then we are still left with the question of what to make of this, OK, let's call it a "blessing service" (which just happens to have the form of the ordination, and just happens to take place in the sanctuary, at the holy table, at the same time as the ordination of male deacons, with a few admitted differences) for a female deacon. And why is she given the orarion as a vestment? For what function is it? Why does she commune at the altar and actually touch the sacred chalice by setting it on the altar(!)?

What was the role of the over 40 female deacons at the Church of Hagia Sophia in Constaninople in 535?

What was the purpose of these deaconesses for the first 12 centuries of the church, until it fell out of disuse?

Why did St. Nektarios "bless" (since according to you we can't use the word "ordain") a woman in 1911 to be a deaconess? Why did the then Archbishop of Athens, Chrysostomos, do the same a few years later? Why did the Church of Greece open a college for deaconess in 1957? Why did the Russian Church have the restoration of the female dicaonate on the agenda of their council before it was interrupted by the Bolshevik revolution?

Why do the Orthodox portray Sainted female deacons in diaconal vestments?

Through the prayers of the holy female deacons, St. Phoebe, St. Sophia, St Macrina, (the sister of Sts. Gregory and Basil), St. Nonna, (the wife of St. Gregory Nazianzus), St. Theosebia (the wife of St. Gregory of Nyssa), St. Gorgonia (the daughter of St Gregory the Theologian), St. Melania, St. Susanna, St. Appolonia, St Olympia, St. Xenia, and of all the other deaconesses, and all the Saints, may Christ our God have mercy on us and save us!

Priest Thomas (who serves only 150 adults and 30 children in his miniscule parish)

Father Thomas,

Thank goodness for that; it leaves you the time to post in a charitable tone .

Many years,

Neil

I also want to add to the discussion I Tim 3:11. This word has often been translated as "wives," (which it can have that meaning) but in the context, why would St. Paul be addressing the wives of deacons?

This word should be translated "women," as in "women deacons." St. John Chrysostom bears this meaning out, in his comment on the verse: "Some have thought that this is said of women generally, but it is not so, for why should he introduce anything about women to interfere with his subject? He is speaking of those who hold the rank of Deaconesses."

Remember that it was due to the ministry of deaconesses that he was able to flee Constatinople when he was exiled. He wrote many letters to his deaconesses, which can still be read today, and enlighten us to their ministry at the time.

So, contrary to what was posted by others, that Rom 16:1 is the only place which deaconesses are addressed, I Tim 3:11 seems to be another example.

Matthew P. also mentioned, and I would like to reiterate, that St. Paul addresses other groups of women in various epistles. It is largely believed that they were likely deaconesses, although the word is not specifically mentioned.

Priest Thomas

Dear Daniel,

Well, I certainly don't defend everything about Robert Lentz (or Orthodoxy, or Catholicism, or the Pope etc.)

Lentz's icons ARE used by certain Catholic priests in their outreach to the gay community, as you know . . .

I don't know if his icon of David and Jonathan are meant to be part of that audience for which he paints - I had a friend here at work whose name is "Jonathan David" and I gave him a copy of Lentz's icon of his two name-saints.

It was funny how that happened. He wasn't religious, others in the office told me he was an avowed agnostic.

But when I said there was an icon of Sts David and Jonathan, he asked me to get it for him.

A month later, I forgot about it . . .

But he didn't, and kept coming back to me to ask me to please remember to obtain it for him.

I finally did and he put it on his desk. He still has it and has told me he has "modified" his views of religion of late . . .

So while I certainly don't defend Lentz on everything, I also don't condemn for everything.

Alex

Dear Charles,

Yes, I've seen the service on-line several times in the past - it is most prominently used by gay churches as a "marriage" ceremony.

I'll see if I can find it - although I think Neil could find that no problem.

Not that I'm expecting Neil to do that . . .

Alex

Dear Brethren,

If I may....contribute here a bit of common-sense synthesis of our many sources of the tradition to come to the time-honored practice of our Rite.


We have clearly had female deaconesses. Scripture confirms that.

They may have been "blessed" to serve or "ordained" to serve. (That difference will prove irrelevant by the end of the synthesis.)

If they were "ordained," and were "ordained" at the altar, it shall also prove irrelevant.

If they were given an orarion, it shall also prove irrelevant.

The entire (Eastern & Western) Catholic Church meeting in a preschismatic Ecumenical Council instituted a canonical norm that females shall not approach the altar, thereby precluding deaconesses from being ordained and serving liturgically in the same way as deacons. This was most likely in response to some abuse of the traditional role of deaconesses for which the greatest body of evidence points toward a non-liturgical role.

Simultaneously, we need to hold up the Apostle Paul's stricture that the women will keep silent in the liturgical assembly of the Church, a direct reference to speaking in toungues and prophesying, what we would now consider and interpret as preaching, especially since Paul is discouraging the speaking in toungues.

One might want to then ask the very appropriate question "if women are to keep silent, why are the women permitted to sing and read?" Continue with the Apostle, 'that I shall not permit a woman to have authority over a man.'

The singers and readers do not have authority over men, but sing/chant/read responses to what the bishops, priests, deacons, and subdeacons offer as prayer or petition. If they don't offer, no response is given.

The ontological reality of male and female is that the male is the offerer and the female the receiver.

However, a tonsured Reader, set aside by a service strictly reserved for males (sorry, Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese, your innovation of tonsuring females as Readers falls apart) does have "liturgical authority" over all of the untonsured readers and singers, male and female.

But who has authority over the male tonsured Reader? [Even I have to submit to a higher human authority, as distasteful as it may be to me and as unjust as it may appear to you. ] The subdeacons, deacons, priests, and bishops.

So how can we reconcile a deaconess with a liturgical role akin to that held by deacons when she would necessarily have authority over male subdeacons and readers?

We can't, and more importantly, the Church never has. The arrogance of the modern era is that we do not even bother to consider the wisdom of our forefathers in the faith whose blood was poured out like a drink offering through centuries of persecutions, Roman, Turkish, and Communist, somehow madly thinking that we are superior to them in our judgements. Shame on us if we fall into this.


Deaconesses? Yes!
Are they the same as Deacons? No!
Do they take an offeratory role in liturgical functions? No!
Are they to be honored and respected within their traditional role? Yes!

With love in Christ,
Andrew, the Reader

The Reader Andrew makes some good points, even if he does overstate his case, just a bit.

The issue of deaconesses (or female deacons, if you will) has never been one of authority over men. It think that was clearly stated by me several times, where their role was to serve, under very strict limits, the women and only the women of the Church. It was a role which keeps propriety within the body - women with women, men with men.

It also is clear that they likely had no liturgical function, per se. However, the fact that they were communed at the altar (even if just at their blessing/ordination/whatever) and that they wore some type of insignia (orarion) as a sign of their office is anything but irrelevant. They also particpated in the sacrament of the baptism of women, again for the sake of propriety.

It is also clear that their "rank," if you will, was over the sub-deacons. (That is not to imply that they were in authority over them.) In the historical lists, as the ranks of clergy were listed, they were listed before the sub-deacons.

This is not unusual. A layperson, as well as readers, sub-deacons, and deacons, may receive a blessing from the Abbess of a monastery. A priest exchanges a kiss of peace and the kiss of each other's hands with her also. She also wears a pectoral cross as a sign of her rank. She recieves the title "Very Reverend," (the same as an archpriest). The historical record also shows that deaconesses were given the title "Reverend," the same as deacons.

So on the one hand, let us not over state the case of who the deaconesses were, but also let us not minimize their status or function.

Priest Thomas

Bless, Father Thomas!

Could you comment on the role of the Orthodox Abbess?

Theirs would be a much stronger one than the Deaconess, would it not?

They can bless (using the lay three-finger form) can they not?

Alex

Well, the abbess certainly is the head of a monastic community, whereas the deaconess would have served, as a virgin or widow, within churches where laypeople reside. The text for the ordination of deaconesses also implies that they are monastics, so that would be beyond simply a virgin or widow.

Yes, an abbess uses the form of blessing with her hand as one crosses one's self. But let's not go into that history, shall we?

Priest Thomas

Bless, Reverend Father Thomas!

Why not?

Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing as your sinful servant,

Alexander Roman PhD

I was thinking more the whole "how you hold your hand to cross yourself" (west/east/old believers/etc...). Just didn't want to go into that. I'm exhausted by all of this!

Bless, Reverend Father Thomas!

O.K.!

Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing as your sinful servant,

Alexander Roman, PhD

(YOU'Re getting tired? )

Dear Alex, PhD

You got Get Smart in Canada?