www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall the british are coming! the british are coming!

Ryan,

Zenovia was quite correct that many slaves in USA were treated very humanely for the most part. The ones we usually hear about the owners whipcracking the slaves, working them raw from sunup to beyond sundown and abusing them were small percentage compared to many other slave-owners that treated them well...EVEN to the point of PAYING them small wages.

I learned that from an African American lady teaching Minority Studies at Wichita State University where I attended. There was a textbook that mentioned that also.

I was very surprised. And there were other slaves such as Chinese and Irish that were mistreated far more than the Africans were.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Thanks, Alex! I salute you too!

Just so you know, I'm a direct descendent from the Dundas Clan in Canada. Majority of the Dundas Clan moved to Canada from Scotland to escape from harsh famine and financial difficulties even to the point of selling the Dundas Castle (in Edinsburg) to make ends meet.

There are a lot of Dundases in Ontario area. Yes, I'm related to Sir Henry Dundas whom was named after in many areas in Ontario (county, city, street names, etc.).

The last time I was in Ontario back in 1998 with my former girlfriend, people raised their eyebrows when they see my license (and passport), couldn't quite figure out why then. Apparently I didn't know much about my family history then!

But my great aunt spent years and years along with my distant cousins working on the family tree that's traced way back a thousand years to the very first Dundas of Dundas and she had them published (with photos, lineage, etc.etc.etc.). So since I looked into a thick out-of-print book, I got more interested in the Dundas Clan.

It's no wonder I felt immediate connection to Canada even times way before my knowledge of my family. We used to visit Canada quite often when we lived in Oregon and when my mother lived in Montreal for couple years.

Peace,

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Dear SPDundas,

Yes, Dundas Street and Dundas Ontario - lots of place names and your tartan is well-known!

'Tis I who developed the Ontario district tartan which is now legally sanctioned as our official provincial tartan.

What do you say to that, Anhelyna of Glasgow?

Alex

Hello Alex...

COOL! What does thte Ontario district tartan look like? Is that from the Dundas tartan or what?

I'll have to go back up there again someday...it's been so long since I've been there.

Is that where you live?

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Dear Friend,

If you google "Province of Ontario" the symbols will come up.

The Ontario district tartan is based on the tartan of our first Premier, Sandfield McDonald and also on the colours of nature and also a red thread in honour of the First Nations people.

Yes, I live in the "Queen City" of Toronto! I would be pleased to meet with you and take you to lunch one day!

(It's always nice to meet people from the Forum! I almost met the great Administrator in Niagara Falls but I was kept from going there because the August blackout. After my behaviour since, I very much doubt if the Administrator would be thrilled to see me in person however . . . ).

Cheers,

Alex

Well, we know out good friend and contributor Alex is a staunch monarchist. Ontario "began loyal, and loyal shall she be", and that's okay. I don't think Canada will ever completely cut the cord with Mother England, and that is the choice Canadians are free to make.

Slavery took longer to get rid of in the US because much of the South's economy was based upon it. My only point was that it began under the auspices of the British Empire, long before the American Revolution.

Brazil, it must be noted, abolished slavery without a war.

As for me, I'm a "r"epublican. Our nation was founded by the Declaration of Independence. The Government was created by the ratification of the Constitution, where our rights are endowed by the Creator, not given to us by the government. We have no need nor desire for a monarch. We do hear a lot about Bonnie Prince Charlie, and I'm glad we aren't stuck with him in the US.

There never is much media attention about the Spanish Royal Family. King Juan Carlos is a friend of the Bush family (that's probably why).
His wife, Queen Sophia, was Greek Orthodox (I think she's Catholic now).

You are quite correct about the economy of the South. Even in the time of Christ the economy of Rome rested on slavery. It was so ingrained that even scripture indicated servants should obey their masters. Fortunately, the economic system no longer needs slavery, which probably had more to to with its abolishment than all the personal opposition to it. It seems to me that the industrial revolution would have eventually ended slavery anyway, since machinery is less costly and more efficient. I suspect Canada didn't need slaves to start with since cotton won't grow there. Who's ever heard of ice plantations? As for their royal highneys, let the British have them. It's nice to have them visit, as long as they don't stay.

i wonder if she will stop by Virginia Tech

Dear Friends,

I think it is simply perposterous to try and white wash American slavery. Doesn't matter if some times they were treated well, or better than wage earners in other places. The slaves were not looked upon as human by slave holders. It is often just as true that the African slaves were treated like chattel and they very often had their families torn apart.The idea of owning a human being is disgusting.

I just do not understand why any one would want to make an issue of minimizing American Slavery.

Here is an article on wikipedia on American Slavery:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_slavery

very well documented.

I quote one small section:

Treatment of slaves
Treatment of slaves was very harsh and inhumane. Whether laboring or walking about in public, people living as slaves were regulated by legally authorized violence. On large plantations, slave overseers were authorized to whip and brutalize noncompliant slaves. Slave codes authorized, indemnified or even required the use of violence, and were denounced by abolitionists for their brutality. Both slaves and free Negroes were regulated by the Black Codes, and had their movements monitored by slave patrols conscripted from the white population which were allowed to use summary punishment against escapees, sometimes maiming or killing them. In addition to such physical abuses, slaves were at constant risk of losing members of their families if their owners decided to trade them for profit or to pay debts. Some slaves retaliated by murdering owners and overseers, burning barns, killing horses, or staging work slowdowns. [4]

Slaves were a very expensive investment and were fed, clothed, housed and provided medical care. It was common to pay bonuses at Christmas season and allowed slaves to keep earnings and gambling profits. (One slave, Denmark Vesey, won the lottery and bought his own freedom.) In many households, treatment of slaves varied with the slave's skin color. Darker-skinned slaves worked in the fields, while lighter-skinned house servants had better clothing, food and housing.[5]

I don't think anyone is minimizing slavery. It's historical fact, but it's over and long past time to move on. There are no living slaves today. Unfortunately, too many careers and fortunes of some black leaders rest on constantly rehashing the past, with great profit to themselves in the process. I don't even want to talk about the eternal angst of the PC crowd - may their houses be turned into dunghills.

ByzanTN:

I do not believe I am being politically correct simply by bringing up more information on the historical record.

We should be able to face up to the dark side of the history of our society (and our church, for that matter). I feel my friends and fellow posters only presented only one aspect of the pertinent history, and I want to balance that. I am not saying that they are wrong either, just that they left out part of the story.

I hate political correctness too. Believe me, in my personal life, I am taking far more hits from the cultural and political left now then I am from the right, to the point where a couple of my friendships are strained. All because of my commitment to Catholic truth.

But the term, "political correctness" is another label we can slap on people and arguments in order to minimize them. When use a label like that, we do not have to listen to others.

I would also like to hear from some African Americans, if we have any on this forum. Sometimes I feel that those of us who are white, myself included, talk about these things among ourselves, without much input from African Americans.

I think I, too, have found that Catholicism has put me at odds with much of the world. Didn't Christ say that He would cause that very thing? However, I resolve to not feel guilty about things that happened long before I was born. If I find anything today that is blatantly unfair or opposed to Christ's teachings, I will do what I can to correct it. I do believe, though, that evil will be present until the end of time. Perhaps its effects can be lessened in certain situations, but evil itself isn't going away for the time being.

Dear ByzanTN,

I agree that none of us should feel guilty about things that happened way before we are born. I do not feel personally guilty about slavery. I just feel we should be honest and complete in our presentation of the history, let the chips fall where they will. I am not saying, by the way, anyone was dishonest on our forum, I assume best intentions. I am just saying lets tell the whole picture and be accurate as we can.

Anti-Catholicism is the last acceptable prejudice. I am disappointed that I have some friends who think I am a Nazi simply because I do not believe in female priests.

Actually, I regret to report, there are living slaves today - in some countries, it's even legal. It goes on in many more countries, through various subterfuges.

Christ is Risen!

Fr. Serge

Anyway, on a lighter note, did anyone see HRH at the Kentucky Derby yesterday?

I watched the full two hours of coverage of the Derby, and saw Her Majesty quite a few times. I picked Street Sense to win, and he did, but then again he was the favorite to win. His jockey was a diminutive (well, duh) Cajun guy from SW Louisiana with a THICK Cajun accent.

If the Derby weren't in the middle of my finals, I think I'd pack up and go to Louisville. Ahh, there's always the Preakness and the Belmont Stakes I guess!

Alexis