www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Question Concerning Fillioque's Dogmatic Status

Dear East and West,

Well, even the Latin Church herself is talking about seeing the 14 Councils after the first Seven as "local Latin."

It would not contradict Catholic teaching to see the later Latin Councils as "Ecumenical Latin Church Councils" or some such (if the Pope would wish to do so).

And perhaps it is being just too hasty to want to push Todd out the door of the Catholic Church . . .

Some Thomists I know seem to think that those who don't like the philosophy of St Thomas Aquinas have a questionable commitment to Catholicism.

Or it could just be that the theological system of Particular Churches are specific to them - and that other systems are just irrelevant.

IF so, then what is the problem?

Alex

I am not pushing him out the door. I am just trying to udnerstand why he would want to stay in communion with the Latin Church, which he believes to be in error, when he could join the Eastern Orthodox Church and agree with everything they teach. Don't get me wrong. I don't want him to leave. I just don't understand why he stays.

Dear East and West,

You and me both!

But I believe Todd is only saying that the Western scholastic tradition is irrelevant to Eastern Catholic Churches.

And he would be right.

Alex

He would be right if the Church could profess two different faiths. But there is one faith, one Lord, one Baptism, one God and Father of us all.

Might I recommend to you a small but potent book by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger called Principles of Catholic Theology. It might help get you through and over this divisive stage in your development.

May I also suggest that you take this to a separate thread of its own so that the management is not forced to close this most interesting and fruitful thread on account of bickering and shoving.

Mary

Thanks for the disrespect. I was not bickering. I am trying to understand a position.

Could you do that in another thread? It is off-topic here.

Mary

That's a bit of an exaggeration, Alex. There are a number of Orthodox scholars that I know personally who read deeply in St. Thomas. Not the secondary scholastic thinkers, but of St. Thomas?...yes.

Mary

Dear Mary,

I'm not saying that all Orthodox scholars don't read ST Thomas.

I'm saying that Todd is saying the Western scholastic tradition is irrelevant to the Christian East.

Are there any Orthodox scholars who say that their churches would do well to adopt Thomism in any way?

Hmmm? There's the rub - and the difference.

The Orthodox Baroque tradition of Kyiv was the exception to the rule. If you can find any Orthodox scholar today who likes the Kyivan Baroque, I would be deeply in your debt!

As I already am . . .

Alex

Orthodox theologians and scholars are reading Thomas for two reasons that I find very beautiful. The first is because St. Thomas has a very beautiful sanctity that comes through in his writings. He is first and foremost a spiritual master and the people that I know find him to be of great spiritual help. So in that sense yes. St. Thomas is often highly recommended among eastern Orthodox, monastics in particular. He is just not adopted as a Father of eastern theology.

With respect to the reading of St. Thomas's theological work it is precisely for the purpose of comparing St. Thomas with the eastern tradition and not all find that there is such a deep chasm as some say there is. I tend to agree. I know that comes as a shock to you. And I truly hope that I am not setting your teeth on edge as much. You've been exceptionally pleasant and I wanted to say something without making us both blush...or cringe.

Mary

Dear Mary,

Well, you think things through very thoroughly and I deeply appreciate your spirituality that truly shines through all you write!

I've nothing against the Kyivan Baroque as I've always said - and that puts me on the "bad list" of our Eastern forumites, although not always.

Patriarch Joseph Slipyj was deeply devoted to St Thomas Aquinas, by the way, and included a Byzantine icon of him in his Cathedral of St Sophia in Rome. In fact, Pat. Joseph wrote extensively on the Filioque and other points to show precisely the connections between Aquinas and the East.

I'm not familiar with Orthodox who read St Thomas, but see that there has been a tradition of venerating him in the East, at least privately. That is why I ask - not to be smart, but because I genuinely don't know and find the topic interesting.

St Peter Mohyla's Catechism was very scholastic - and I don't mind at all. I think he faced the challenges of his age courageously and with dedication to Orthodoxy.

The fact that there are Orthodox today who don't like him - that's their prerogative, but it's a shame, if you ask me.

Alex

Its interesting that you are allowed to continue the discussion.

Dear East & West,

We did get off on the wrong foot and I am sorry about that. There are a couple of threads here where some very good and thoughtful people have expended a good bit of energy to keep the discussion moving along in very positive directions.

I am not eager to see a couple of badly placed incendiaries wreck the joint, so I asked that you move it off to a topic of its own, or ease back a bit. Neither suggestion was meant to be nasty, nor were they meant to silence you.

For some things there are no easy answers. Sometimes it is better to be patient and wait, and not try to lead the answer by closing off people's options in the formation of your question, etc.

So maybe tomorrow we can try again.

God bless,

Mary

Dear East and West,

Mary is just wonderful once you get to know her!!

She can be feisty, but I find feisty, pious and intellectual women to be rather exciting - don't you?

Mary would make a great EC Presbytera and she is exactly the type of person I would marry as a priest myself.

She would be a great pillar of support in the parish, she would be able to speak to one and all and give her insightful counsel to those in trouble etc.

Alex

Elijahmaria, I still think you are misunderstanding me and forcing what you want to see in my questioning and posting what you want to see. Do you have a problem with traditional Catholics? I don't know. I am sorry that we got off on a bad foot as well, but you must understand, even while appologizing your posting sounds self righteous and demeanig. In Christian charity, you might want to reconsider the way you discuss issues with some one you disagree with.
That being said, I will read the book you have suggest by Cardinal Ratzinger. However, I might not agree with him with regard to everything he says. I don't now.