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#233560 05/07/07 10:11 PM
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In light of current scientific teaching on evolution, does anyone know the following? 1. What the Roman Catholic Church definitively teaches concerning what must be believed regarding the creation of human beings. 2. What the Orthodox Church definitively teaches concerning what must be believed regarding the creation of human beings. Thanks.

Joe

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The most direct reference to evoloution in the Catechism of the ROman CHurch is as follows:
"....Many scientific studies which have splendidly enriched our knowledge..of the development of life forms, and the appearance of man. These discoveries invite us to even greater admiration for the greatness of the creator, prompting us to give hin thanks for all his works and the understanding and wisdom he gives to scholars and researchers." (clause 283, Catechism of the Catholic Church, St Pauls, 2000, imprimatur Cardinal Josef Ratzinger).

That said, the catechism goes into some detail on definitive truths about creation; a brief list would be: ex nihilo, orderly and arranged to the good,God transcends but is present in his creation, and that Man is in GOd's image, unites the natural and spriritual worlds, is male and female, and established in God's friendship (before the fall). (clauses 290 - 380 approx.)

Can't help with orthodox perspectives.

Ned

Last edited by Otsheylnik; 05/08/07 06:54 AM. Reason: To better address Joe's question
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Originally Posted by JSMelkiteOrthodoxy
In light of current scientific teaching on evolution, does anyone know the following? 1. What the Roman Catholic Church definitively teaches concerning what must be believed regarding the creation of human beings. 2. What the Orthodox Church definitively teaches concerning what must be believed regarding the creation of human beings. Thanks.

Joe

Joe,

Christ is Risen! (only get to say that for a wee bit longer...although that never stopped St. Seraphim of Sarov!)

Probably the most authoritative teaching comes from two sources:

1. The decisions of the Pontifical Biblical Commission while it was still an official arm of the magisterium (early part of the 20th century, as stated by Pope St. Pius X in Motu Proprio Praestantia Scripturae.

Quote
On the Mosaic Authorship of the Pentateuch

June 27, 1906 (ASS 39 [1906-07] 377f; EB 174ff; Dz 1997ff)

I: Are the arguments gathered by critics to impugn the Mosaic authorship of the sacred hooks designated by the name of the Pentateuch of such weight in spite of the cumulative evidence of many passages of both Testaments, the unbroken unanimity of the Jewish people, and furthermore of the constant tradition of the Church besides the internal indications furnished by the text itself, as to justify the statement that these books are not of Mosaic authorship but were put together from sources mostly of post-Mosaic date?

Answer: In the negative.

II: Does the Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch necessarily imply a production of the whole work of such a character as to impose the belief that each and every word was written by Moses' own hand or was by him dictated to secretaries ; or is it a legitimate hypothesis that he conceived the work himself under the guidance of divine inspiration and then entrusted the writing of it to one or more persons, with the understanding that they reproduced his thoughts with fidelity and neither wrote nor omitted anything contrary to his will, and that finally the work composed after this fashion was approved by Moses, its principal and inspired author, and was published under his name?

Answer: In the negative to the first and in the affirmative to the second part.

III: Without prejudice to the Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch, may it be granted that in the composition of his work Moses used sources, written documents namely or oral traditions, from which in accordance with the special aim he entertained and under the guidance of divine inspiration he borrowed material and inserted it in his work either word for word or in substance, either abbreviated or amplified?

Answer: In the affirmative.

IV: Subject to the Mosaic authorship and the integrity of the Pentateuch being substantially safeguarded, may it be admitted that in the protracted course of centuries certain modifications befell it, such as : additions made after the death of Moses by an inspired writer, or glosses and explanations inserted in the text, certain words and forms changed from archaic into more recent speech, finally incorrect readings due to the fault of scribes which may be the subject of inquiry and judgement according to the laws of textual criticism?

Answer In the affirmative, saving the judgement of the Church.

Concerning the Historical Character of the First Three Chapters of Genesis

June 30, 1909 (AAS 1 [1909] 567ff; EB 332ff; Dz 2121ff)

I: Do the various exegetical systems excogitated and defended under the guise of science to exclude the literal historical sense of the first three chapters of Genesis rest on a solid foundation?

Answer: In the negative.

II: Notwithstanding the historical character and form of Genesis, the special connection of the first three chapters with one another and with the following chapters, the manifold testimonies of the Scriptures both of the Old and of the New Testaments, the almost unanimous opinion of the holy Fathers and the traditional view which the people of Israel also has handed on and the Church has always held, may it be taught that: the aforesaid three chapters of Genesis Contain not accounts of actual events, accounts, that is, which correspond to objective reality and historical truth, but, either fables derived from the mythologies and cosmogonies of ancient peoples and accommodated by the sacred writer to monotheistic doctrine after the expurgation of any polytheistic error; or allegories and symbols without any foundation in objective reality proposed under the form of history to inculcate religious and philosophical truths; or finally legends in part historical and in part fictitious freely composed with a view to instruction and edification?

Answer: In the negative to both parts.

III: In particular may the literal historical sense be called in doubt in the case of facts narrated in the same chapters which touch the foundations of the Christian religion: as are, among others, the creation of all things by God in the beginning of time; the special creation of man; the formation of the first woman from the first man; the unity of the human race; the original felicity of our first parents in the state of justice, integrity, and immortality; the command given by God to man to test his obedience; the transgression of the divine command at the instigation of the devil under the form of a serpent; the degradation of our first parents from that primeval state of innocence; and the promise of a future Redeemer?

Answer: In the negative.

IV: In the interpretation of those passages in these chapters which the Fathers and Doctors understood in different manners without proposing anything certain and definite, is it lawful, without prejudice to the judgement of the Church and with attention to the analogy of faith, to follow and defend the opinion that commends itself to each one?

Answer: In the affirmative.

V: Must each and every word and phrase occurring in the aforesaid chapters always and necessarily be understood in its literal sense, so that it is never lawful to deviate from it, even when it appears obvious that the diction is employed in an applied sense, either metaphorical or anthropomorphical, and either reason forbids the retention or necessity imposes the abandonment of the literal sense?

Answer: In the negative.

VI: Provided that the literal and historical sense is presupposed, may certain passages in the same chapters, in the light of the example of the holy Fathers and of the Church itself, be wisely and profitably interpreted in an allegorical and prophetic sense?

Answer: In the affirmative.

VII: As it was not the mind of the sacred author in the composition of the first chapter of Genesis to give scientific teaching about the internal Constitution of visible things and the entire order of creation, but rather to communicate to his people a popular notion in accord with the current speech of the time and suited to the understanding and capacity of men, must the exactness of scientific language be always meticulously sought for in the interpretation of these matters?

Answer: In the negative.

VIII : In the designation and distinction of the six days mentioned in the first chapter of Genesis may the word Yom (day) be taken either in the literal sense for the natural day or in an applied sense for a certain space of time, and may this question be the subject of free discussion among exegetes?

Answer: In the affirmative.


2. The Encyclical Letter of Pope Pius XII, Humani Generis which addressed, among many things, the theory of polygenism which argued that man descended from many groups of human beings.

Here is a good summary of the issue:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humani_Generis

Another article to my mind attempts to cast doubt on the Church's monogenistic teaching. Still, there is some helpful information here, especially in the footnotes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_and_the_Roman_Catholic_Church

They speak of scientific evidence to the contrary, but no evidence is cited. Also, I believe I ran across an article some 15 years ago which indicated that all DNA can be traced back to a single maternal origin. (Paternity has yet to be scientifically established at that level.)

My sense is that the whole teaching on redemption is predicated on a single origin - the root of the whole human tree, as the father's say.

Hope these sources help!

God bless,

Gordo

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Dear Gordo,

The issue of the DNA traced back to a single origin is more than correct. There was a long article about it four years ago in a paper up here and I read it more than once just to assure myself that I wasn't seeing things! wink

And the Eastern Church takes Adam and Eve even more seriously than the Latin Church, giving our Foreparents the honours of saints (and they are always depicted in the icon of Christ's descent to Hades as the Lord raises them up by the hand etc.).

And the common tradition re: the Cross of Christ being placed into the ground on top of the actual grave of Adam - which is why the skull is portrayed at the foot of the Cross.

In the Slavonic tradition, the Greek letters "NIKA" do not mean "He Conquers" but the letters represent the Slavonic words "Na holhofi Iskupyl Kroviu Adama" or "On Golgotha He saved Adam with His Blood."

Alex

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There's nothing definitive I've seen. I certainly do not believe Adam and Eve were literal people. They're figurative representations of humanity.

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Originally Posted by AMM
There's nothing definitive I've seen. I certainly do not believe Adam and Eve were literal people. They're figurative representations of humanity.

So according to the principles of spiritual exegesis (which is basis for the entire Gospel and the New Testament) redemption is simply castles built on clouds.

Gordo

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Dear AMM,

Well, that's certainly not what the Holy Orthodox Church teaches!

Alex

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Gordo,

Thanks, I will read these texts very closely. This is just the kind of thing I was interested in studying. I have some additional questions, but I'll hold off until I've read the articles you've posted.

Joe

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Originally Posted by ebed melech
Originally Posted by AMM
There's nothing definitive I've seen. I certainly do not believe Adam and Eve were literal people. They're figurative representations of humanity.

So according to the principles of spiritual exegesis (which is basis for the entire Gospel and the New Testament) redemption is simply castles built on clouds.

Gordo

No, but nor do I think it's dependent on there being a literal Adam or literal Eve, or the idea that Eve was created from his rib.

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Originally Posted by AMM
Originally Posted by ebed melech
Originally Posted by AMM
There's nothing definitive I've seen. I certainly do not believe Adam and Eve were literal people. They're figurative representations of humanity.

So according to the principles of spiritual exegesis (which is basis for the entire Gospel and the New Testament) redemption is simply castles built on clouds.

Gordo

No, but nor do I think it's dependent on there being a literal Adam or literal Eve, or the idea that Eve was created from his rib.

Andrew,

I respectfully disagree, and I believe that the weight of both biblical and patristic evidence is on my side. Old Testament types that are myths cannot prophetically prefigure anything, since the exegetical science of typology as practiced by the New Testament writers and the Fathers is grounded on the literal/historical meaning of the text. To say myths prefigure historical figures is to regard Divine Revelation in the same way as one should treat Greek Mythology (Pere Louis Bouyer has an excellent treatment of this point in his The Meaning of Sacred Scripture). One needs to get at the spiritual substance of a pagan myth by completely discounting its historicity, whereas both the Hebrew (and subsequent Christian) view of what is revealed in the sacred text is that it is true, religious history. What's more, it presents itself as true history, so if one denies its fundamental event character, this casts into doubt its inspiration. God is not the Author of myth.

That being said, it is a religious history and one should not assume that the text reveals more than it actually does. It is not, obviously, written as either a modern newspaper article or history textbook or a scientific manual. (And, just for the record, according to Genesis, Eve was fashioned from Adam's side, not necessarily his rib. I have heard some Fundamentalists claim that men have fewer ribs than women, which is in itself a myth!)

If one denies a literal Adam and Eve, than our whole Christological and redemptive framework is predicated (I like that word - I've been using it alot lately) on a historical falsehood. Hence, castles on clouds.

In ICXC,

Gordo

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Dear Gordo,

Well, of course Eve was made from Adam's rib!

Just ask any married man when he gets yelled at by his wife "Where do you feel the pain first?"

In the ribs, don't you know . . . wink

I hope this doesn't cause comment from Mary! smile

Alex

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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Dear Gordo,

Well, of course Eve was made from Adam's rib!

Just ask any married man when he gets yelled at by his wife "Where do you feel the pain first?"

In the ribs, don't you know . . . wink

I hope this doesn't cause comment from Mary! smile

Alex

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Gordon

Quote
I believe that the weight of both biblical and patristic evidence is on my side.

This may be, but the weight of patristic evidence and a literal reading of genesis would probably support a six day creation and a young earth theory. I myself don't accept either of those.

Quote
Old Testament types that are myths cannot prophetically prefigure anything, since the exegetical science of typology as practiced by the New Testament writers and the Fathers is grounded on the literal/historical meaning of the text.

Well, I disagree. I think many things in the Old Testament are aspects of mythology; meaning that they are not simply made up, but that they point to an underlying reality, though in and of themselves may not be literally true. Consider what Origen said about these events in his On First Principles

What intelligent person will suppose that there was a first, a second and a third day, that there was evening and morning without the existence of the sun and moon and stars? Or that there was a first day without a sky? Who could be so silly as to think that God planted a paradise in Eden in the East the way a human gardener does, and that he made in this garden a visible and palpable tree of life, so that by tasting its fruit with one�s bodily teeth one should receive life? And in the same way, that someone could partake of good and evil by chewing what was taken from this tree? If God is represented as walking in the garden in the evening, or Adam as hiding under the tree, I do not think anyone can doubt that these things, by means of a story which did not in fact materially occur, are intended to express certain mysteries in a metaphorical way.

Quote
To say myths prefigure historical figures is to regard Divine Revelation in the same way as one should treat Greek Mythology (Pere Louis Bouyer has an excellent treatment of this point in his The Meaning of Sacred Scripture). One needs to get at the spiritual substance of a pagan myth by completely discounting its historicity, whereas both the Hebrew (and subsequent Christian) view of what is revealed in the sacred text is that it is true, religious history. What's more, it presents itself as true history, so if one denies its fundamental event character, this casts into doubt its inspiration. God is not the Author of myth.

I see them differently. I think there is a strand of reality in the Old Testament stories, though literally they may not be true.

Quote
That being said, it is a religious history and one should not assume that the text reveals more than it actually does. It is not, obviously, written as either a modern newspaper article or history textbook or a scientific manual. (And, just for the record, according to Genesis, Eve was fashioned from Adam's side, not necessarily his rib. I have heard some Fundamentalists claim that men have fewer ribs than women, which is in itself a myth!)

Even taking them at face value and nothing beyond simply would not work. If there was a literal Adam then one would trace his genealogy back from Christ to him. This would be problematic in that it would

A. Not make sense in light of the conflicting genealogies in the New Testament.
B. Not make sense in light of what we know of the age of the earth.

Quote
If one denies a literal Adam and Eve, than our whole Christological and redemptive framework is predicated (I like that word - I've been using it alot lately) on a historical falsehood. Hence, castles on clouds.

Again, I disagree. I don't see it that way. Adam and Eve are metaphors for the origin and state of humanity.

I should add I'm not intending to argue with or disprove your viewpoint. I simply don't share it.

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Dear AMM,

Certainly, your post reflects what I was taught by my RC teachers in Catholic High School.

They are still Catholics in good standing, so I take it the Catholic Church hasn't excommunicated them . . . yet wink

Alex

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Andrew,

This is good dialogue! (It is also quite helpful in refining my catechetical work with teens!)

Quote
This may be, but the weight of patristic evidence and a literal reading of genesis would probably support a six day creation and a young earth theory. I myself don't accept either of those.


Quote
Well, I disagree. I think many things in the Old Testament are aspects of mythology; meaning that they are not simply made up, but that they point to an underlying reality, though in and of themselves may not be literally true. Consider what Origen said about these events in his On First Principles...


You and I are not in disagreement about everything here. The PBC attempts to address this by indicating that the Hebrew word for "day" (yom) indicates a spanse of time, which may be 24 hours or it may be quite longer. Could God have created the world in 6, 24-hour days? Certainly. The earth, created ex nihilo, could easily have been formed by God as a mature earth, the sun a mature sun, etc etc. The question is, what does the human author (and Divine Author) intend to convey? Again, this is a religious history, not a scientific textbook or HS history text. Clearly the intent is to show God's ordering of the visible cosmos as a tabernacle-icon of the glory of the heavens. The first three "yom's" indicate the dwelling places of the creatures who inhabit them that were created in the next three "yom's", with man as the pinnacle of God's creation, vested with priestly dominion over the temple of God's house, which is sealed by God's covenant rest.

The fact that the author may have "framed" the creation account in such a way to mirror the tabernacle in the wilderness constructed by Divine command does not in any way detract from the event character of the story.

It has also been argued that the construction of the differing geneologies in both the OT and the NT are intended to serve as a literary tool to teach something specific in the context of the whole narrative. The figures are still historical, but the construction of the history is framed in such a way to serve as a device for the unfolding story.

Quote
I see them differently. I think there is a strand of reality in the Old Testament stories, though literally they may not be true.


I am willing to acknowledge the use of literary devices, but I guess I am not willing to go so far as to reduce the biblical accounts to having "strands of reality" covered in myth. I still trust their event character as a matter of faith, while acknowledging that I canot read them as a modern would. I need to situate myself fully in the canonical context of the story and read it as a faithful Israelite would do so as well as in the light of the Gospel.

Quote
Even taking them at face value and nothing beyond simply would not work. If there was a literal Adam then one would trace his genealogy back from Christ to him. This would be problematic in that it would

A. Not make sense in light of the conflicting genealogies in the New Testament.
B. Not make sense in light of what we know of the age of the earth.


I already addressed the genealogy issues, so I will not repeat myself. As to "what we know of the age of the earth", I guess I am not so assured of the implicit reliability of scientific knowledge. Theories are posited, alternate theories are proposed, some are in vogue at one moment and other opposing ones the next... and besides, if the world was created as a "mature" world, how could we possibly properly measure its age and development?

I do not necessarily subscribe to the young earth view. I guess I withhold judgement for now. The point of the Scriptures as religious history is not necessarily to assign a specific date to creation. Again, I think that is asking more of the Bible than it was written to provide! The key points are addressed by the PBC, IMHO. Age of the earth is not included on that list.

Quote
Again, I disagree. I don't see it that way. Adam and Eve are metaphors for the origin and state of humanity. I should add I'm not intending to argue with or disprove your viewpoint. I simply don't share it.


I realize that. I would say that I am arguing that certain aspects of your position undermine, if you follow them to their logical conclusion, core elements of an Orthodox and Catholic theology of redemption. By mythologizing Adam and Eve and denying them as literal, historical figures, it undermines the Christian worldview of the mission of Christ at its roots.

God bless!

Gordo

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