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Iam not sure what the Orthodox church teaches regarding Adam and Eve, but here is what the Catholic Church definitively treaches regarding Adam and Eve and origins of human life:

Humani Generis
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII
AUGUST 12, 1950

"(#37). When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which through generation is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own."


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Originally Posted by dstan51
Iam not sure what the Orthodox church teaches regarding Adam and Eve, but here is what the Catholic Church definitively treaches regarding Adam and Eve and origins of human life:

Humani Generis
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII
AUGUST 12, 1950

"(#37). When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which through generation is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own."

Out of curiosity, I ask the following question. What would one do with this papal statement were it proven, beyond any reasonable doubt, that polygenism was true? Of course, it may be that the question of monogernism vs. polygenism may never be settled scientifically, in which case, the papal statement is immune to falsification.

On a related note, it seems that Pope Pius XII is saying that it is necessary to see the very personal sin of Adam as being transmitted to all human beings by generation. Does he mean the sin itself? or the consequences? A straightforward reading seems to suggest that we do in fact inherit Adam's sin so that we can say that we are guilty in Adam and stand condemned from the moment of conception.

As an Orthodox Christian I reject this Augustinian view, even in its modified form in the latest Catholic Catechism. But, it seems to me that the whole controversy over the question of a literal Adam and Eve is bound up with how one understands original sin. At least, from the Latin magisterial documents cited in this thread, it seems that the transmission of original sin is a primary concern.

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Gordon, I'm glad I can provide some value for you in preparing for your teens!

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Again, this is a religious history, not a scientific textbook or HS history text.

I absolutely agree, but your point was the weight of patristic tradition and scripture was on your side about a literal Adam. It's also probably on the side of people who believe in a literal six day creation, though of course there are other minority views. The majority view in this case I believe is most definitely wrong.

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It has also been argued that the construction of the differing geneologies in both the OT and the NT are intended to serve as a literary tool to teach something specific in the context of the whole narrative. The figures are still historical, but the construction of the history is framed in such a way to serve as a device for the unfolding story.

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I am willing to acknowledge the use of literary devices, but I guess I am not willing to go so far as to reduce the biblical accounts to having "strands of reality" covered in myth.

Your first statement really is no different to me than saying there is a strand of reality inside the myth. I believe there was a Prophet Jonah for instance, but I believe the idea that he was swallowed by a "great fish" and deposited on dry land three days later to be purely mythological.

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I still trust their event character as a matter of faith, while acknowledging that I canot read them as a modern would. I need to situate myself fully in the canonical context of the story and read it as a faithful Israelite would do so as well as in the light of the Gospel.

I don't see how you can read the texts without reference to what we know now of the world. It's one thing to understand how these texts were viewed at the time, but it's another to ignore what we know now.

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I already addressed the genealogy issues, so I will not repeat myself. As to "what we know of the age of the earth", I guess I am not so assured of the implicit reliability of scientific knowledge. Theories are posited, alternate theories are proposed, some are in vogue at one moment and other opposing ones the next... and besides, if the world was created as a "mature" world, how could we possibly properly measure its age and development?

It seems clear to me that we know the earth is millions of years old and life existed before the appearance of humans. So the creation story, literally understand to me with Adam at the head, is simply unacceptable.

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I realize that. I would say that I am arguing that certain aspects of your position undermine, if you follow them to their logical conclusion, core elements of an Orthodox and Catholic theology of redemption. By mythologizing Adam and Eve and denying them as literal, historical figures, it undermines the Christian worldview of the mission of Christ at its roots.

Again I disagree, and conversely one runs the risk of undermining Christian claims by saying they are literal people and that everything rests on that. The risk to me is more real in the latter case. The redemption of humanity to me is not dependent on this.

Also

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the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which through generation is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.

Needless to say I reject this as well.

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Originally Posted by AMM
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the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which through generation is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.

Needless to say I reject this as well.

Andrew, I have to agree with you. And, if it is in fact infallible teaching of the Latin Church that the actual sin of Adam is passed on to us as if it were our own, then I have to say that this is evidence that the Latin Church has taught error. And I don't mean that to be offensive, I am just pointing out something that I think clearly is in error. All of the particular Churches are capable of teaching error, in my opinion, and probably have taught error.

It seems to me though that there is no reason not to see Adam and Eve as symbolic of the first human beings, whether they were an original pair, or an original tribe. And the fall would be a collective fall. Once the original human beings were enlightened and dwelt in the uncreated light. But, instead of bowing before the light and acknowledging their creator, they took it upon themselves to exalt themselves over nature and become gods on their own terms. Immediately, God withdrew His light and the original human beings became subjected to the tyranny of nature's powers and forces and for the first time experienced true fear of death. That is my interpretation.

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Joe, yes in essence I believe I have a similar view. I see Adam and Eve as archetypal humans, endowed with the power to choose God but the impulse to do what they want. In other words I see the Fall as a metaphor for human freedom, and sin as the misuse of our will. I do however believe we are born without sin, and that only through our gaining of cognitive abilities do we gain the ability to exercise our will, and therefore sin.

Redemption is the combination or our will and God's. So I personally don't have an issue with Adam and Eve as metaphors.

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Originally Posted by JSMelkiteOrthodoxy
Andrew, I have to agree with you. And, if it is in fact infallible teaching of the Latin Church that the actual sin of Adam is passed on to us as if it were our own, then I have to say that this is evidence that the Latin Church has taught error. And I don't mean that to be offensive, I am just pointing out something that I think clearly is in error. All of the particular Churches are capable of teaching error, in my opinion, and probably have taught error.

Joe

Seems to me that Bishop Hilarion seems to think Adam and Eve are a bit more than mere symbols....Mary

http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/10/1.aspx#25

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CONSEQUENCES OF ADAM�S SIN

After Adam and Eve sin spread rapidly throughout the human race. They were guilty of pride and disobedience, while their son Cain committed fratricide. Cain�s descendants soon forgot about God and set about organizing their earthly existence. Cain himself �built a city�. One of his closest descendants was �the father of those who dwell in tents and have cattle�; another was �the father of all those who play the lyre and pipe�; yet another was �the forger of all instruments of bronze and iron� (Gen.4:17-22). The establishment of cities, cattle-breeding, music and other arts were thus passed onto humankind by Cain�s descendants as a surrogate of the lost happiness of Paradise.

The consequences of the Fall spread to the whole of the human race. This is elucidated by St Paul: �Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned� (Rom.5:12). This text, which formed the Church�s basis of her teaching on �original sin�, may be understood in a number of ways: the Greek words ef� ho pantes hemarton may be translated not only as �because all men sinned� but also �in whom [that is, in Adam] all men sinned�. Different readings of the text may produce different understandings of what �original sin� means.

If we accept the first translation, this means that each person is responsible for his own sins, and not for Adam�s transgression. Here, Adam is merely the prototype of all future sinners, each of whom, in repeating Adam�s sin, bears responsibility only for his own sins. Adam�s sin is not the cause of our sinfulness; we do not participate in his sin and his guilt cannot be passed onto us.

However, if we read the text to mean �in whom all have sinned�, this can be understood as the passing on of Adam�s sin to all future generations of people, since human nature has been infected by sin in general. The disposition toward sin became hereditary and responsibility for turning away from God sin universal. As St Cyril of Alexandria states, human nature itself has �fallen ill with sin�; thus we all share Adam�s sin as we all share his nature. St Macarius of Egypt speaks of �a leaven of evil passions� and of �secret impurity and the abiding darkness of passions�, which have entered into our nature in spite of our original purity. Sin has become so deeply rooted in human nature that not a single descendant of Adam has been spared from a hereditary predisposition toward sin.

The Old Testament writers had a vivid sense of their inherited sinfulness: �Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me� (Ps.51:7). They believed that God �visits the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation� (Ex.20:5). In the latter words reference is not made to innocent children but to those whose own sinfulness is rooted in the sins of their forefathers.

From a rational point of view, to punish the entire human race for Adam�s sin is an injustice. But not a single Christian dogma has ever been fully comprehended by reason. Religion within the bounds of reason is not religion but naked rationalism, for religion is supra-rational, supra-logical. The doctrine of original sin is disclosed in the light of divine revelation and acquires meaning with reference to the dogma of the atonement of humanity through the New Adam, Christ: �...As one man�s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man�s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. For as by one man�s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man�s obedience many will be made righteous... so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord� (Rom.5:18-21).

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Originally Posted by Elijahmaria
Originally Posted by JSMelkiteOrthodoxy
Andrew, I have to agree with you. And, if it is in fact infallible teaching of the Latin Church that the actual sin of Adam is passed on to us as if it were our own, then I have to say that this is evidence that the Latin Church has taught error. And I don't mean that to be offensive, I am just pointing out something that I think clearly is in error. All of the particular Churches are capable of teaching error, in my opinion, and probably have taught error.

Joe

Seems to me that Bishop Hilarion seems to think Adam and Eve are a bit more than mere symbols....Mary

http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/10/1.aspx#25

Quote
CONSEQUENCES OF ADAM�S SIN

After Adam and Eve sin spread rapidly throughout the human race. They were guilty of pride and disobedience, while their son Cain committed fratricide. Cain�s descendants soon forgot about God and set about organizing their earthly existence. Cain himself �built a city�. One of his closest descendants was �the father of those who dwell in tents and have cattle�; another was �the father of all those who play the lyre and pipe�; yet another was �the forger of all instruments of bronze and iron� (Gen.4:17-22). The establishment of cities, cattle-breeding, music and other arts were thus passed onto humankind by Cain�s descendants as a surrogate of the lost happiness of Paradise.

The consequences of the Fall spread to the whole of the human race. This is elucidated by St Paul: �Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned� (Rom.5:12). This text, which formed the Church�s basis of her teaching on �original sin�, may be understood in a number of ways: the Greek words ef� ho pantes hemarton may be translated not only as �because all men sinned� but also �in whom [that is, in Adam] all men sinned�. Different readings of the text may produce different understandings of what �original sin� means.

If we accept the first translation, this means that each person is responsible for his own sins, and not for Adam�s transgression. Here, Adam is merely the prototype of all future sinners, each of whom, in repeating Adam�s sin, bears responsibility only for his own sins. Adam�s sin is not the cause of our sinfulness; we do not participate in his sin and his guilt cannot be passed onto us.

However, if we read the text to mean �in whom all have sinned�, this can be understood as the passing on of Adam�s sin to all future generations of people, since human nature has been infected by sin in general. The disposition toward sin became hereditary and responsibility for turning away from God sin universal. As St Cyril of Alexandria states, human nature itself has �fallen ill with sin�; thus we all share Adam�s sin as we all share his nature. St Macarius of Egypt speaks of �a leaven of evil passions� and of �secret impurity and the abiding darkness of passions�, which have entered into our nature in spite of our original purity. Sin has become so deeply rooted in human nature that not a single descendant of Adam has been spared from a hereditary predisposition toward sin.

The Old Testament writers had a vivid sense of their inherited sinfulness: �Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me� (Ps.51:7). They believed that God �visits the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation� (Ex.20:5). In the latter words reference is not made to innocent children but to those whose own sinfulness is rooted in the sins of their forefathers.

From a rational point of view, to punish the entire human race for Adam�s sin is an injustice. But not a single Christian dogma has ever been fully comprehended by reason. Religion within the bounds of reason is not religion but naked rationalism, for religion is supra-rational, supra-logical. The doctrine of original sin is disclosed in the light of divine revelation and acquires meaning with reference to the dogma of the atonement of humanity through the New Adam, Christ: �...As one man�s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man�s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. For as by one man�s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man�s obedience many will be made righteous... so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord� (Rom.5:18-21).

Mary,

The reason we all have a predisposition to sin is that we are born into the race without the gift of the divine, uncreated light, so that we have a natural fear of death that tugs at our wills and without grace, it is nearly impossible for us to continue for long in the world without sinning eventually. But, this is much different than claiming that when Adam sinned, we all sinned, and so we inherit a guilty nature. The latter I must categorically reject and I stand with St. Gregory of Nyssa and other fathers who also rejected that notion.

With all due respect to his excellency, the notion that someone could have guilt transmitted to him through generation is abhorent to right reason and if God "is not the author of confusion" as Scripture teaches, then it cannot be the case that God regards the innocent as guilty. I do not think that this rationalism. I think that this is simply reasoning in accordance with the innate sense of justice that God has implanted into all of us.

It is true that we are born with a nature that is diseased and weakened, because we do not have the divine light by nature, and because we are born into a race where, from the get-go, we are habituated to sin just as much as we are habituated to righteousness. All of us will fall into sin, because without the divine light within us, we are too weak to stand up to the forces of death indefinitely.

Joe

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Dear Friends,

With regard to the above papal teaching on Original Sin quoted by dstan, in actual fact, the Pope is NOT saying that the actual sin of Adam is communicated to us.

He is saying that original sin "proceeds" from the actual sin of Adam - that is not the same thing as saying that the actual sin of Adam is passed down to us.

In fact, it is true that Original Sin proceeds from the actual sin of Adam i.e. concupiscence, death etc.

Alex

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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Dear Friends,

With regard to the above papal teaching on Original Sin quoted by dstan, in actual fact, the Pope is NOT saying that the actual sin of Adam is communicated to us.

He is saying that original sin "proceeds" from the actual sin of Adam - that is not the same thing as saying that the actual sin of Adam is passed down to us.

In fact, it is true that Original Sin proceeds from the actual sin of Adam i.e. concupiscence, death etc.

Alex

Alex, that is an important distinction. Thanks for the clarification.

Joe

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Dear Joe,

I have my moments . . . smile

Actually, everything I know I learned from the Administrator and am happy to learn more from yourself and Mary!

Let the education continue as Angela would say! (Where is Angela these days? Back in Lourdes?)

Alex

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As a Roman Catholic I have to say that what Mary and Bishop Hilarion are saying is the belief of the Latin Church.

Original sin implies that all men are born with a sinful, fallen human nature, but that is not the same thing as individual or personal guilt. The guilt was that of Adam and Eve (or whatever the names of the first human parents), but all their children have inherited the fallen nature left to them (along with a promise of redemption, Gen 3:15).

The Council of Trent explicitly defined against certain Protestant ideas that original sin is passed on by generation, not emulation. There are very likely certain nuances in the formulation, but that is the basic idea.

Michael

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Dear Friends,

this is a complex issue. Consider remarks by the last two popes, that seem to be somewhat at odds with each other:

There is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine of the faith regarding man and his vocation, provided that we do not lose sight of certain fixed points. In order to mark out the limits of their own proper fields, theologians and those working on the exegesis of the Scripture need to be well-informed regarding the results of the latest scientific research.�

� John Paul II, 1996

�The question is not to either make a decision for a creationism that excludes science, or for an evolutionary theory that covers over its own gaps and does not want to see the questions that reach beyond the methodological possibilities of natural science. The theory of evolution implies questions that must be assigned to philosophy and which themselves lead beyond the realms of science.�

� Benedict XVI, 2007

In my own view, I cannot believe that the earth is only six thousand years old. There are some stars we see in the sky that aren't even there anymore, for the light has taken billions of years to arrive to us.

In the Revised Standard Version Catholic edition, we are told in the footnotes (paraphrased, I do not have it in front of me) that there are nothing in the early chapters of Genesis that commits us to any particular theory of origins, or that would exclude the evolutionary hypothesis. The notes go on to say that there are two stories of creation here, coming from two different sources, on being older than the other. This seems apparent to me upon a simple reading of the text at face value.

Yet, St. Paul's teaching in Romans seems predicated on a literal understanding of the persons of Adam and Eve.

Did any one see the interview on EWTN with the scientist who is in charge of the human genome project? He seemed to believe that orthodox Christian faith was compatible with evolution.

I guess in the end,

- I am agnostic about the literalness of Adam and Eve; the story itself has mythic elements (Cain builds a city after his crime; where did all of those people come from?)
- I believe in theistic evolution
- The earth and universe are billions of years
- I subscribe to a source theory for the composition of Genesis (J,E,P,D, or some variation with it, perhaps with a Mosaic core)




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I don�t wish to take this thread off topic but I would like to make sure definitions maintain accuracy.

Originally Posted by JSMelkiteOrthodoxy
And, if it is in fact infallible teaching of the Latin Church that the actual sin of Adam is passed on to us as if it were our own, then I have to say that this is evidence that the Latin Church has taught error. And I don't mean that to be offensive, I am just pointing out something that I think clearly is in error. All of the particular Churches are capable of teaching error, in my opinion, and probably have taught error.
Most often the teaching of the Latin Church regarding original sin that is rejected is that given at Trent, and I think that most who do reject it do not correctly understand what Trent actually teaches. In the decree on original sin the term �guilt of original sin� is mentioned in paragraph five. But it is necessary to read the preceding paragraphs which define �guilt� because it did not mean the same thing for the fathers of this council that it means for us today. Today we hear a tem like �inherited guilt� and think automatically that we inherit the personal guilt or culpability of the sin of Adam and Eve. But for the council fathers of Trent �guilt� is defined in the preceding four paragraphs and means not personal guilt but that we inherit the consequences of the sin of Adam and Eve.

A summary of Trent on original sin goes like this:

Paragraph 1: Adam�s transgression resulted in his loss of holiness and justice, death (mortality), and captivity to Death (enslavement to sin).

Paragraph 2: Adam�s transgressions affected not only him but affect all who come after him because they inherit this loss of holiness and justice, death (mortality), and captivity to Death (enslavement to sin).

Paragraph 3: The sin of Adam (which we inherit as described above) cannot be taken away except by the blood of Christ. (�As many has have been baptized�.�)

Paragraph 4: Infants need baptism even if born of baptized parents because they do inherit original sin from Adam. (�unless an man be born again of water and the Spirit�.�)

Paragraph 5: The guilt of original sin is remitted through baptism (with �guilt of original sin� being that described in Paragraphs 1 through 4 (loss of holiness and justice, mortality and enslavement to sin)).

This could be a worthy discussion for a new thread, but I post it here so that this thread is not taken off topic by an incorrect definition of original sin.

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Dear Administrator,

You still have it! smile

Thanks!

Alex

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Dear Administrator,

Thank you, that was very helpful. If we were to continue this discussion on another thread, I would ask what is meant by "loss of holiness and justice." If that is simply a synonym for "participated existence in the uncreated divine light" then there would, perhaps, be no real disagreement. But, I don't want to get the thread too derailed. Still, since what we believe about evolution and creation does have significant implications for how we understand the fall, then it is related.

Joe

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