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Dec 29th, 2019
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I speak of the Roman Church before and after Vatican II. I came across a monk named Bro. Michael Dimond, who says that the changes at Vatican II were so vast that the new mass is invalid, priesthood ordinations are no longer valid and the popes are now all antipopes and the See of Rome is vacant. This monk�s website is: http://mostholyfamilymonastery.com/ Does anyone on this forum hold views similar to this? If anyone as an opinion about this I would very much like to hear it! -Adrian
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Wow, thats pretty extreme.
I doubt anybody here holds these beliefs, even us Orthodox.
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[sorry; I posted to the wrong thread.]
Last edited by harmon3110; 05/09/07 09:42 AM.
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Catholic Gyoza Member
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I speak of the Roman Church before and after Vatican II. I came across a monk named Bro. Michael Dimond, who says that the changes at Vatican II were so vast that the new mass is invalid, priesthood ordinations are no longer valid and the popes are now all antipopes and the See of Rome is vacant. This monk�s website is: http://mostholyfamilymonastery.com/ Does anyone on this forum hold views similar to this? If anyone as an opinion about this I would very much like to hear it! -Adrian The Brothers Dimond are part of the extreme view that there is no Pope and that the Chair of St. Peter is vacant. He has excommunicated everyone who follows Pope Benedict. No, I don't believe that many on this Forum support their extreme views. I know I don't.
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A bit extreme. If they are right we are all doomed to hell. I suspect that he is not.
CDL
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Peter is still in Rome.
-- John
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The Brothers Dimond are part of the extreme view that there is no Pope and that the Chair of St. Peter is vacant. He has excommunicated everyone who follows Pope Benedict. Dear Dr. Eric, I read the part about Pope Benedict XVI being a heretic. He said that the Pope prayed in a Mosque, crossed his arms in Muslim fashion, and turned towards Mecca. I believe we are allowed to pray anywhere, are supposed to face East, and if I recall correctly, my grandmother told me to cross my arms in front of me when praying. So much for that! I can't help but hope that he was blessing the Muslims when doing so. What can be better for those who are far from the true God, than a blessing from a Pope. God Bless, Zenovia
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Dear Friends,
The Muslims are not heretics.
The only thing remotely connected with them in this regard is "hair ticks."
Alex
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Islam = Satanic Cult of Death Worship.
Enough said.
As much as I respect the Pope, praying in a mosque was wrong.
I do understand that he did it to appease the maniacs who were burning Churches and killing nuns after the Pope made His comments on the 'prophet'. (His comments were absolutely 100% true I might add)
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Dear Friends,
The Muslims are not heretics.
The only thing remotely connected with them in this regard is "hair ticks."
Alex Alex, Could you elaborate? Perhaps they are a false religion and not heretics. Sounds like a strain over words. They reject Christ as God. They postdate Christianity. Sounds heretical to me. Perhaps your deeper insight would help me see your point. CDL
Last edited by carson daniel lauffer; 05/09/07 03:56 PM.
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I do not argue this point, I merely point it out that Hillaire Belloc argued that Islam is most properly considered a heresy and not a different religion.
Jason
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I believe the Jews, the Muslims and the Pagans (Hindus, Buddhists and other) to be Infidels, and the Protestants to be heretics (there are some sects that are even apostatical by the way).
Regarding Dimond and his followers they're "Feeneyites". They're not Traditionalists but Integrists, they are very much like the Matthewite faction of the Old Calendarists in Greece. They do view the modern Roman-Church, the Orthodox Churches and even the other Traditional Catholic groups as devoid of grace.
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The Muslims are not heretics.
The only thing remotely connected with them in this regard is "hair ticks." Dear Alex, When Mohamedism first popped up, it was considered a heresy by the Church. Still in all, I consider it very smart of Pope Benedict to worship in a Mosque. By prostrating and crossing his arms the way they do, he did something that the Muslims could relate to...and after all, isn't that what we want? How else can these people be reached? As for facing Mecca, is it east of Istambul, or was I wrong by stating that in my post?  I recall reading how a crusader saw a Muslim praying towards Mecca, and lifted and turned him towards the East. But that Crusader was probably in the Holy Land. I think I'd better look at a map so I'll know what I'm talking about.  God Bless, Zenovia
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I believe the Jews, the Muslims and the Pagans (Hindus, Buddhists and other) to be Infidels, and the Protestants to be heretics (there are some sects that are even apostatical by the way). Dear Mexican, The Muslims were formed predominatly from the heretic sect of Arianism...or so they say. No doubt to prove their claim for the land now called Spain. Many of their customs, such as the prostrations, etc., are copied either from Christians, or pre-date Christianity and Islam and were part of what was common in that part of the world. Oddly enough, there is a statue from ancient Greece showing a girl from Asia Minor. She had her head dress crossed over, covering the bottom part of her face. This also seems to have been the custom in the Eastern Roman Empire, more commonly called Byzantium. Buddhists do not believe in one god. Judaism forms the basis of Christianity. Without the progression of religion that occurred with Judaism, Christianity would not have existed, and the Hindu's basically are pagans. They believe in many gods...like the ancient Greeks, and Germans. Protestants are not heretics...or at least haven't been in the past. Otherwise, the Orthodox Church would not have belonged to the National or World Council of Churches. They have always been recognized as true Churches, although incomplete. God Bless, Zenovia
Last edited by Zenovia; 05/09/07 07:30 PM.
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Returning to the OP....... Not having looked at the site, but having plenty of experience with such arguments, I'd have say this is another example of what Papa Ratzi night call "neo-integrism". Integrism is an error that's a flip side (and reaction to) modernism: "The term "integrism" was coined during the pontificate of Pius X and his successor after the former condemned modernism. As it is customary, after such a condemnation, some zealots begin to see 'modernists' under every stone. An organization headed by Msgr. Begnini (not Bugnini or Benelli!) called "La Sapini�re" from the name of their headquarters started a witchhunt and went to denounce as modernists perfectly orthodox theologians or scripture scholars. [snip snip] "Regarding theology, the progressivist is charmed by anything new; the progressivist theologian wants theological issues to be as free as possible and tends to limit unduly what is required to be believed to remain Catholic. The 'integrist' theologian, au contraire, tends to restrict what is legitimate theological opinion. He 'theologizes' i.e. he takes a theological opinion and makes it a dogma or at least a theological certitude which no one is free to reject. In liturgy, the progressist thinks that the non-sacramental rites and symbols can be adapted without any restraint. The 'integrist' believes that every rubrics is as important as the next one, and will even try to impose the personal view of a liturgist as mandated by the church. A recent example which come to mind is a person who insisted that only red wine should be used for Mass and was making a big deal about it. The example of ( a canonist) is also quite good. I guess one could say that the problem of progressivists and integrists is to fail to make a distinction between what is essential and what is accidental, what is important and what is not. The progressivist tends to make everything unimportant and therefore changeable and the integrist will tend to make everything important and therefore un-changeable. In both case, it is a misunderstanding of tradition. Ref: http://sspx.agenda.tripod.com/id34.htmlNow, as far as my opinion, one could tackle this problem from a number of different angles. But I'd tackle it from a simply ecclesiological standpoint: Jesus guaranteed that the Church - not only in its spiritual/eschatalogical sense, but also in the sense of the human institution composed of bishops, priests, laypeople, etc.- would prevail against the gates of hell. Therefore, we can be assured that the church - and presumably the majority or at least a significant minority - will stay faithful to Him until He returns. In that sense, it makes absolutely no sense to say that the entire Church is wrong and that a small opinion is correct; in fact the opposite is true. Moreover, I would like to see how such a group reconciles their often quite ultramontane views of the pre-Vatican II papacy with the idea of papal infallibility. Markos ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh Lord although I desired to blot out
With my tears the handwriting of my many sins
And for the rest of my life to please thee through sincere repentance;
Yet doth the enemy lead me astray as he wareth
Against my soul with his cunning.
Oh Lord before I utterly perish do thou save me!
Last edited by MarkosC; 05/09/07 09:13 PM.
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