www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Implementing the New Liturgy: how we are doing it.

Someone has suggested that even to use the liturgy at all is to support an evil. That seems a bit radical but how does one ignore ones bishop? If this is to be a protest with teeth how does one go about implementing it?

CDL

The question is still on the table and I'd like to read some answer or hear of some action being taken. If the liturgy is bad enough that you are convinced it will do harm to your soul and to the soul of the Church what are you going to do about it?

I'm accused on the one hand by Professor Thompson of unfairly opposing the liturgy. Father Serge had accepted my invitation to come and speak on the liturgy. In the midst of our early preparations I received a firestorm of protests of any number of chicken littles who while complaining about the liturgy didn't want anyone to actually do anything about it.

Now that the liturgy has been promulgated these same whiners are still complaining about the dreadful liturgy. It may be dreadful. But now I'm accused of having some conspiracy to destroy churches because I observe the obvious. To wit, the liturgy has been promulgated. What is it that you intend to do about it?

Karl has taken a Godly route. While he has some serious reservations he has taken his responsibility as a cantor and is leading our choir in as good an application of the liturgy as is possible, at least for the time being. Is there anyone anywhere who is proposing actually doing anything about this new liturgy except implementing it? Anyone? Or is this a board filled only with whiners?

CDL

Fr. Loya, since you have been a regular (and I might add very edifying) poster on this forum, as well as a pastor who has had to implement these changes, would you give us your thoughts on the new RDL?

Anna,

I hope Father responds. I hope also that those who think the implementation liturgy to be an evil would tell us what they are going to do about it and what they expect the rest of us to do.

CDL

Dear friends,

It seems to me that there are three choices:

1) join some other jurisdiction, either Catholic or Orthodox.

2) stay, and obey one's bishop.

3) stay, and disobey one's bishop.

For me, since I _don't_ think the RDL is heresy (and it should be remembered that accusations of heresy ought to be thrown around like freight trains--not easily), #1 and #3 are not possible. Ergo, I will do #2. I make no judgment on those whose consciences tell them to do #1 or #3. The point of this thread was for those choosing option #2. _If_ you are interested in implementing what the bishops have told us to implement, _then_ you might like to know how we are doing it.

There are other threads for the kind of discussion that has happened here. I should know, since I've contributed to them.

I think Fr. Loya said something about a Phoenix rising from the ashes of the Ruthenian church. It's on fire now. How many years will it take to rebuild?

I won't say that the implementation has been totally without stress. Certainly, Easter has presented some real challenges. Flipping from the basic liturgy to the music/text for the specific Sunday to "The angel proclaimed to her" magnification, etc., can be pretty stressful on both cantors and congregation.

We, too, have started out with Option A and have stuck with it now throughout Lent and Easter, and most of the people have got the general hang of it. Sometimes I find that it's easier to learn something entirely new than to make minor alterations, e.g., singing two half notes rather than the dotted half and quarter we were used to. It took 3 or 4 weeks, but almost everyone now sings "trampled" and "tombs" rather than "conquered" and "graves." While most people are singing along, they don't sound as strong as in the past. However, I believe that will come with time. We'll move on to Option B, and in a few months when we return to review Option A, there will be that wonderful moment when people think to themselves "Oh yeah, I remember that!"

One of the blessings of belonging to a parish where almost everyone came from somewhere else, is that we're all used to adapting.

Occasionally, if I notice that everyone is making the same error, I'll give a very short instruction before the opening hymn. Of course, the late-comers miss out on it, but oh well ... I agree that practice by the cantor/choir is extremely important. If we sound strong and confident, the people will follow. If we falter, the people will falter, too.

I believe that cantors and choir members are in a leadership position within the parish. Not only do we lead the singing, but we have the ability--and the responsibility--to influence positively how the congregation will respond to the changes. One of the things I've tried to focus on is how much has not changed at all and how much has changed very little.

I agree with P-A's statement about the gravity of the accusation of heresy. While implementing theologically ambiguous aspects could lead to such a thing, it has to be a solid repudiation of established dogma as received through the Councils to win such a distinction of infamy. One should not easily, however, dismiss the potential danger of such ambiguity.

I would disagree that de facto taking P-A's option #1 necessitates an accusation of heresy. For many this was not the only factor in making such a decision. While the liturgical changes have certainly prompted some to take action, people have moved around within and between Catholic churches sui iuris long before this came along, not involving accusations of heresy. Last time I checked it was still "one, holy, Catholic and apostolic" and one's choice to move to a new ecclesiastical home sui iuris for spiritual enrichment and growth within the Catholic communion is certainly recognized for the benefit of the soul in question.

Diak,

Well, yes. For me, #1 isn't an option, for a host of reasons, not just because the RDL isn't heretical (in my opinion). I'm sorry wasn't more clear--I plead the late hour.

I suppose, as CDL has suggested, that I am one of the "whiners". I will accept that label. I submitted four letters to Rome describing my objection to the reformed Liturgy and I have spoken with numerous priests of the Ruthenian Church but I'm sure that I could do more. One person has suggested that I sue the Metropolitan in ecclesiatical court.

Today I am guilty of being weary and feeling somewhat defeated. Currently, I attend a Ruthenian Catholic Church which has implemented the reformed Liturgy. I continue to sing the word "men" in the Creed and our priest continues to use "Lover of Mankind". The people sing half-heartedly as they fumble around the pages. It can be depressing at times. I am still in a discernment process as to whether I should convert to Holy Orthodoxy. I want to cry everyday.

The whiner,
Recluse

Dear Recluse,

For what its worth, you are certainly not one of the people I would have though of when reading that note (neither is lm); you've objectively stated your grievances, and been above-board about what you would want to change.

When reading Carson's note, I thought of the conversations like the following which I've had in person or on the Net over this:

"I don't like it. It's all bad, and no one sings."
"The people on either side of you were singing."
"Well, that's cause they don't understand how bad it is. It's all wrong."
"Which part of the music is wrong? Can you give an example."
"It's ALL wrong. No one can sing any of it; it's too complicated."
"Hmm... would this be better?" (sings something in Slavonic)
"Yes, we used to sing that all the time; I wish we still did."
"Is it too complicated?"
"Of course not."
"Umm.. the new melody in English is the same melody, except we repeated a note to accent a word properly."
"Impossible. The new music is ALL wrong. Someone has to stop making us sing this new Roman Catholic music we never sang before. Oh, and this Typical Psalms stuff is horrible, they do that at my aunt's parish, the Russian one. It's NOT Catholic! And the Beatitudes stuff, on my gosh; everyone knows you're supposed to sing that at Communion, not in the first part of the Mass!"

etc. Imagine another hour of this; THAT is whining. There are certainly substantive issues with the new books, but endless "I hate it, make it stop, Father/bishop/Cantor Joe is being mean to us." makes it hard to find out what the REAL problems are - when there are any. I think people here might be surprised to realize how very many complaints I've heard that the new books are "too Orthodox."

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

I certainly have not heard that one yet. I don't think the Orthodox probably think that of the changes.

Dear Father Deacon,

The point here is not what the Orthodox think (we were discussing "whiners") but our own people.

1. "Over at the Russian church, they say Theotokos, but Catholics should say Mother of God. And we have ALWAYS said by death Jeusu CONQUERED death, not trampled like the Orthodox; you mean Christ DIDN'T CONQUER death?"

2. "We KNOW that the consecration takes places when the priest says This is my body. How dare you try to change our belief by singing a plain Amen at those holy words, just so (you say) you can emphasize this "epiclesis" thing my uncle, who goes to some Synod parish, is always carping about?"

3. "Typical Psalms and Beatitudes, and those extra litanies - we never did that before, too Orthodox. We're NEVER gonna get out of church. And don't even get me STARTED about standing at Mass!! "

4. "How Orthodox and sanctimonious to sing 'God grant them many blessed years!' The proper word is 'happy', just like when we sing in our language. You're trying to make everything like the Orthodox have it."

I have HEARD these comments in our good old-fashioned Greek Catholic parishes. Unfortunately, some of them hear that there is disagreement over the changes, and have assured me that everyone is upset with turning away from our good Greek Catholic ways, and this "Orthodox" stuff is going to be rolled back. I have not yet heard a single complaint about 'inclusive language', though I was expecting them, but I heard all of the above.

No, it's certainly not what (educated) Orthodox Christians would say, or our own vostochniki, but I have heard all of the above. In brief, following the "usual Orthodox terminology", which might have pleased some of us (were they not upset over inclusive language), offends others. Obviously, there is work to do on SOMEONE's part convincing these folks as to why we OUGHT to do things "like the Orthodox". Otherwise, the cry of "we are moving away from the Orthodox!" will carry very little weight...

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

I would not necessarily consider you to be a whiner if my opinion counts for anything. You have taken action. Keep up the good work.

CDL

Jeff,

Thank you. You have stated the issue better than I did. That is what I was pointing to.

CDL