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Dear Friends,

I thought I'd begin a thread on Western Rite Orthodoxy . . .

Having met a number of people who have sought it out and have joined it (including one priest and his entire parish that I know), what can we say about its mission in the West?

If one is "into" one's Western Catholic heritage, what does Western Rite Orthodoxy offer over and above Eastern Orthodoxy devotionally and spiritually?

Alex

Now there is a reasonable question, thank God. Without any claim to be complete, here are a few suggestions:

1) Gregorian Chant (not to be despised!)

2) the Western Fathers

3) a greater attention to and appreciation of Western liturgical source materials

4) - and this largely is confined to English - the tradition of English hymnody (if any Western Orthodox are reading this, may I recommend J. M. Neale's metrical translations of Eastern liturgical texts, which can be sung to traditional English hymn tunes?).

5) a greater realization that one can be Orthodox without being required to plunge into a different ethnic identity.

And so on.

Fr. Serge

Bless, Father Archimandrite!

A reasonable (and scholarly) response!

Do the Anglican Divines such as Launcelot Andrewes, William Laud, William Law, Richard Hooker and the rest have anything about them that would have excited interest in the Orthodox Church among Anglicans?

When you were here, you once discussed John Wesley and his interest in receiving Orthodox ordination, his reading of the Fathers of the East and his Rule of life.

Alex

Could it be that Western Orthodoxy allows one to remain as he is as a High Church member and yet have valid Eucharist and Holy Orders that he couldn't have as an Anglican or Lutheran? And yet, not have to "Cross the Tiber" and place himself under the Pope?

In light of this consideration, I am curious about how interested Western Orthodoxy truly is in the teachings of the Western Fathers, and also how interested they are in the western councils, regardless of whether or not one sees them as local universals or true ecumenical councils?

Mary

Something more in line with one's own cultural patrimony I would think; aesthetic, musical, liturgical, etc.

Another question about Saints this time . . .

In the Catholic situation, whenever Eastern Churches came into communion with Rome, the Saints of those Churches were allowed to be "carried over" into the local liturgical cultus.

I understand that a principle to be followed was that if there was a Saint who was especially "anti-Roman" he could not have liturgical veneration in the EC church (and he was usually expunged from the calendar - in Ethiopia, Rome expunged the name of Pontius Pilate from the calendar of the Ethiopian Catholic Church).

How does that work in Western Rite Orthodoxy?

As Mary has pointed out, what about all those Catholic Saints honoured by the West well after the Schism period? Are they not part and parcel of the "spiritual home" of Westerners seeking to maintain their patrimony as they move to Orthodoxy?

Are Western Rite Orthodox expected to see St Francis as something other than a Saint? Yes, they could pray to him privately, as Orthodox do, but not to have his liturgical commemoration and celebration?

Are Western Rite Orthodox to pretend that after a certain year (whether 1054 or later) there was no more sanctity in the West? To conclude that would be EASIER psychologically for one who moves to Eastern Orthodoxy than to Western, I would imagine.

Also, the Launcelot Andrewes Press that does such an excellent job of publishing Western liturgical texts (their Benedictine Diurnal is excellent!) does include the commemoration of "King Charles the Martyr" the Anglican saint. I know that veneration for him continues among former Anglicans who become Western Orthodox and Anglican Use Catholics.

What are the rules governing the veneration of saints by traditions who were separated from Orthodoxy?

Alex

I know next to nothing about those Anglican divines, so I'm not qualified to express an opinion. My favorite Irish Protestant writer is C. S. Lewis.

Fr. Serge

That's not really a question, that's more of a trap.

Dr. Eric asks:


The question assumes that the Western Orthodox arrangements are designed largely to attract High Anglicans. There is clearly an element of that, but there are others as well to take into account.

However, a thorough answer to that question would require some extensive research, to investigate the extent to which Western Rite Orthodoxy is or is not related to the sorts of movements (the "Order of Corporate Re-Union" comes to mind at once) which have had such an agenda in the past. The standard source is Peter Anson's Bishops at Large. To be fair, I should add that Anson was pursuing an agenda of his own and did not go out of his way to be kind to much of anyone!

Fr. Serge

Dear AMM,

I withdraw it to avoid trapping . . .

Alex

Father Bless!

I was offering a theory that hadn't been written by the other posters.

I know very little about Western Orthodoxy.

Your unworthy son,

Dr. Eric

I was at Light and Life yesterday, and browsed quickly through the Prayer Book for the Western Rite. it basically has elements of the Anglican Book of Common Prayer.

I think one of the nicest elements in the Western Rite is the use of a modified BCP. If you get rid of the 39 Articles, and some other of the more reformed features, the Book of Common prayer is one of the best examples of Catholic Christianity. It is so easy to pray the Morning and Evening Prayer, going through the Psalter once a month, a meaty but manageable system for a lay person.

Prayer Book Mattins and Evensong are indeed pleasant (I must confess that when I was in High School I often attended Sunday Evensong at St. Bartholomew's in New York - marvelous music!). But Prayer Book "commonly called the Mass"? Forget it!

Or as Cranmer himself put it: "we have done those things which we ought not to have done, and we have left undone those things which we ought to have done"!

Fr. Serge

Intriguing. I disocovered the text of the "Liturgy of Saint Gregory" on the Internet, and therefore went hunting for the "Liturgy of Saint Tikhon". No such luck.

Fr. Serge