www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Keep Writing Letters!

I would be very surprised as well...

Chris

Never give up, and never go away! Remember the parable of the Unjust Judge.

Fr. Serge

Here we have a dilemma. We are asking Rome to intervene in our sui juris church to preserve the integrity of our Byzantine Rite. Suppose he acts, then the Pope of Rome is interferring in liturgical matters in an Eastern church. We can't have that because what the Pope preserves by fiat he can destroy by fiat. On the other hand, we have the hierarchs of a "Byzantine" church taking liberties with the liturgy. They see themselves as the masters of Tradition rather than the servants of Tradition - how Catholic!

I predict that Rome will do nothing. If the Orthodox can accept Latin Rite Catholicism, they can accept the miniscule BCC as a small, anomalous hybred that will fade away in a generation. On the other hand, how could they accept the micromanagement of liturgical matters from Rome as a normal exercise of papal authority?

This post does not reflect my opinion of the RDL or our hierarchs - just speculations as to how Rome might look at this.

I have never spoken with an Orthodox Priest that "accepts" post Schism Latin Catholicism.

Write to the Pope and to the Oriental Congregation soon!

Mention that there is a "vacatio legis" (a "grace" period} up to June 29, 2007, before the obligation of using the Revised Liturgy goes into effect. Say that since there are still many questions regarding the translation and structure of the Liturgy, and some division/disturbance among the people and clergy, the date of official implementation should be postponed indefinitely. There should be a review of the whole project. Write today!

I wonder if it may be too late, in the sense that all of the pew books have been printed, and they won't spring for more?

I know when the Vatican told the Canadian Bishops Conference that they should not use the NRSV lectionary for the Roman Church in Canada, the Canadians said, "Well, we already printed one million lectionaries..." and the Vatican said, "okay, but do not print any more..."

That is to some extent why I asked if "inclusive language" was the primary objection as far the the people's book goes. Essentially, changing that would involve a one word change in the Creed, and reprinting the liturgikons.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff

You know, one of the changes that really bugs me is the "holy gifts to holy people," rather than "holy things to the holy..."

For some reason, that one drives me up the wall, that is the one that is going to make me cringe for awhile...

That is because it is given to us out of the same flawed theology that gives us "...holy Anaphora..."

The holy gifts are to be raised up as an offering to the greater honor and glory of God.

These are not gifts raised up for us, for people.

These gifts include us, include the people, who offer themselves as part of the holy Oblation, as we have always understood oblation in the context of the Eucharistic prayer.

We, the people, participate in the redemption of the world, for the greater honor and glory of God....the holy one.

That is why it sticks. It is part of the greater perversion of our current Eucharistic theology as expressed in the new Byzantine order.

And that is why it must be resisted at all cost.

We must keep writing but we must also know what we are writing about and why. There are serious theological errors that have been set loose in this Church through the RDL. It is not a harmless thing. I will not judge the authors but the work is clearly flawed and the catechesis is heterodox.

Mary

The problems with the Novus Ordo Pittsburgh-Ruthenian Liturgy are legion.

The Liturgicons are incomplete when compared to the official Slavonic edition. They contain rubrics and text that are inaccurate. They use a style of gender-neutral language the Vatican has now prohibited. Some of the specific problems have been discussed at great length here on the Forum and those interested can easily find those discussions. [The best and most complete listing of the problems of this liturgical recasting can be found in Father Serge Keleher�s excellent book. By now everyone who takes issues of Liturgy seriously should have a copy of this book along with most of Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI)'s books on Liturgy.] The use of gender-neutral language (especially in the Creed) is certainly a problem weighty enough to - by itself � necessitate the cancellation of the New Liturgy and the preparation of a new, corrected edition. But there are other problems which - had gender-neutral language not been employed � are also each weighty enough to necessitate the rescinding of this Revised Liturgy.

The music provided in the new Pew Book is awkward. When sung it sounds as if those singing it are not native speakers of English (this also has been discussed here � though less so since most of the proposed settings seem to have been a secret until someone published a few on the web last fall). I have spoken to numerous priests and cantors since the promulgation (as each has seen the book for the first time and carefully reviewed it). Not a single one found it worthy.

Had there been a cooperative effort to correct the few errors in the previous edition of the liturgicon and to produce a comprehensive music book that utilized the talents of many knowledgeable and experienced clergy and laymen (cantors and those experts in language and linguistics) from across the country our Church could have produced something excellent. Instead we have something so flawed it needs to be rescinded.

This promulgation is an opportunity lost and a great tragedy for our Church. It will implode under the weight of its own flaws. Perhaps then we can have a Liturgy that embraces the fullness of our Ruthenian recension.

If the debate over the liturgy produced a revitalized Church then wonderful. It may kill us or it make wake us up. In either event it looks like a challenge is upon us.

Perhaps Father Serge may still be invited.

CDL

Does anyone know-

1) How wide spread is the disatisfaction over this new liturgy, is it wide spread enough to cause concern for our Bishops?
2) Has leadership in the Church given any indication that they now have misgivings about any of this?

My fear is that the disatisfaction with this Liturgy could signal the second coming of Bishop John Ireland.

Surely the second coming of Archbishop John Ireland has already occurred - in the wake of Cum Data Fuerit.

Fr. Serge

I look for evidence of a revitalization. Let me know if you see any. I only see a great sadness. It is like this Church has nothing better to do, than to celebrate its own funeral (and even that, no one will be able to sing, because there will be too many versions of the music, and no one will be able to join in.)

Our Church is wallowing in self-loathing despair. Our clergy are demoralized, and the people are without pastors who care.

Nick

Not fair. Not true. I think our pastors care very much and are well aware of the demoralization in their ranks.

One needs to look at who is pastoring our priests, and by what means.

Burdens sometimes need to be laid across the backs of those to whom they truly belong.

Mary