www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Not all Vespers attached to Sat. night liturgy

Since there have been so many complaints about Vespers celebrated with an anticipated Saturday night liturgy, Michael Robusto asked me to let people know that Holy Ghost parish in Cleveland celebrates Vespers without having an anticipated liturgy, and they would love to have people come and pray with them.

Mary

Wow, how long has it been going on?

Incidentally, if you go the weekend of Memorial Day, walk a few blocks and enjoy the Greek Festival at Annunciation Greek Orthodox Parish. The food is to die for!

I thought this thread would be on fire by now...

Holy Ghost should be packed on Saturday. Well, let's see, word's just getting out. Who really wants Vespers anyway?

Glory to God!!!

I'm curious. It's been a couple of weeks since this thread was started. Has anybody attended vespers at Holy Ghost?

If so, what was it like?

I have another question, pertaining to Vesperal Liturgies on the Eve of feast days (during the week). This is something done in the Antiochian Orthodox Church. I never realized that it was controversial until my priest explained that some Orthodox consider it uncanonical. Could someone explain more? I'm not looking to start a debate. I am just interested in finding out more about the issues that are involved. Thanks.

Joe

The Typicon (that much-ignore guide book) specifically calls for Vesperal Liturgies only a handful of times throughout the year.

As used in the BCC (and AOC) Vesperal Liturgies are an innovation, presumably based on oikonomia. In individual cases I might be convinced of their use on the eves of major feasts. But their implementation for Saturday evenings is, IMO, inexcusable. It is a weak attempt to 'easternise' the concept borrowed from the Roman Catholics of letting people fulfil their 'obligation' on Saturday evening. Instead of being an opportunity of prayer for those who can't make it on Sundays they are mostly filled with people who don't want to get up early for services on Sunday.

This is very helpful. Thanks for the information. As far as I know, we only use Vesperal Liturgies for major feasts that fall during the week (Ascension, Annunciation, Dormition, etc.).

Joe

Joe, those are actually evening divine liturgies properly speaking and not vesperal liturgies like the one on Holy Saturday. The are peculiar to the AOA, and were formed by their department of liturgics. Some would claim they are an innovation (which they are), and that by extension they are not a good thing. Change not being good in other words. I think they would say the main problem is it interrupts the traditional flow and fullness of having great vespers and the festal liturgy separately. I would imagine on the other side it would be said this is a justifiable accommodation to the reality of people who work and so forth and can't make feast day liturgies during the week.

The main issue to me is that the celebration of the evening divine liturgies is not optional, it is mandated by the AOA for all feast days (i.e. the major feasts aside from the Annunciation) that don't fall on a Sunday or Monday.

I wish I were nearer Cleveland.


The celebration of "evening Divine Liturgies is not optional". The celebration of the Divine Liturgy in the evening used to be forbidden. We have an everning service. It is called Vespers. Divine Liturgy should be celebrated in the morning, only.

Nick

We have so much to do, to really recover our Eastern tradition, thank God it is a labor of love.

Nick

I was at St. Nicholas Cathedral a few weeks back for some meetings. The Cathedral now has Vespers (alone) twice on Saturday evenings, one Ukrainian and one English. With Sts. V&O two blocks away you have your choice of Vespers (alone) three ways within two blocks celebrated at a Greek Catholic church.

My OCA parish had a Vesperal Liturgy last Wednesday evening for Ascension. Our priest is a part time priest as he has a full time day job. I'm assuming it's oikonomia, as he couldn't have done a service at any other time.

Andrew,

As it happens, our evening Divine Liturgy begins with Vespers and transitions to the Divine Liturgy. So, it isn't a straightforward Divine Liturgy. And, yes, the reason we have them is that if Divine Liturgy were celebrated in the morning, the priest would be celebrating all of them by himself. I suppose one option would be just to have Vespers on the feast days and offer no Liturgy. Are priests required to offer a liturgy on all feast days?

Joe

That's the same with our priest. He has a full time secular job and two parishes about 50 miles apart. I personally don't see anything wrong with it.

Joe