www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Differences in Orthodox liturgies

Hello everyone,

I had a quick question about the liturgies of the different Orthodox churches. In my town, we have Greek Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox and Syro Russian Orthodox churches. I was curious as to what the differences are in the liturgies at the three churches. (The Syro Russian church seems to have a bizzare history/story associated with it so I will not attend there.) I have spoken briefly to the priest at the Greek church and will probably attend a liturgy in the near future.

I was just curious as to whether the main difference is in language or are there other things that would be noticeably different to someone who is ignorant of the Orthodox faith.

Thanks for your help,
Tom

You would almost certainly notice musical differences, linguistic differences, and that indefinable but real matter usually called "style". Besides, every priest serves the Liturgy a little differently - Liturgy is a combination of art and science (the science in question being lituurgiology). It is likely that the Serbian Church uses much more of the full text than the Greek Church.

Fr. Serge

Father Serge,
Barekmor (Master, bless).


Question for whomever can answer it: what is a Syro-Russian Church?

Michael,

The Syro-Russian Orthodox Catholic Church [rbsocc.org] is one of the myriad "independent Orthodox" Churches - more commonly described as ecclesia vagante. Like many of the genre, it traces its origins, principally, to Mar Timotheos (Rene Joseph Vilatte, whose surname they manage to mis-spell on their site), of whom it is oft said that he never met a man he didn't choose to consecrate as bishop. As to the Russian aspect, they rely on a variety of renegade and/or independent Russian hierarchs, several of whom are themselves character of some note in the annals of the vagante world.

The SROCC is a bit remarkable for its tenacity, having been a presence on the "independent" scene for about a quarter-century. three times that if one accepts the various previous incarnations as valid representations of a continuing entity.

The church in Duluth to which the OP referred is St Mary's, their pro-Cathedral [rbsocc.org]. As is so often the case, this body lists a significant number of locations, world-wide, in which they claim to have parishes or other institutions (including one in County Mayo, Ireland - we'll have to rely on Father Serge to check that one out for us), but no addresses are supplied for the various temples or other facilities. I will say that the Pro-Cathedral does maintain an active and current website and appears to offer a regular schedule of services.

In its favor, it should be noted that the SROCC, which by our terms is neither Syrian nor Russian and neither Orthodox nor Catholic as the terms are commonly used by us, does hold to relatively conservative and mainstream theological premises. In that respect, the SROCC is more dangerous in that it is easier for the unwary to be drawn into it, believing it to be a "canonical" Church. On the other hand, those who do associate to it are not drawn so far astray as is the case with other of the "independent Orthodox and/or Catholic movement bodies" - which embrace some truly bizarre theological tenets.

In short, it's beyond the pale of what Orthodoxy would ordinarily describe as "non-canonical", since that terminology is usually reserved for Churches considered to be "out of grace" and not in communion with any recognized patriarchate, but essentially Orthodox in character and capable of having their status regularized, should they choose to do so. In my opinion, no Orthodox jurisdiction would consider the SROCC to have valid orders or mysteries.

But, in the intriguing contradiction that marks the differences between the Augustinian and Cyprianic theories of Apostolic Succession, it is highly possible that the Catholic Church would find validity, though not licity, in some of the SROCC's episcopal lines and therefore accord recognition to its Mysteries - although there have been some indications of late that the Church may be retreating from this thinking and leaning more to the Cyprianic theory - one can only pray.

Many years,

Neil

Thanks for the explanation - I'd not heard of this vagante group. Interesting perspective that they're actually more dangerous because they're closer to Orthodoxy/Catholicism than many other such little groups.

The name had me curious as I know from reading Kallistos (Ware) that there were once (back in tsarist times) former Assyrians in the Russian Church who'd kept their rite; never heard of ex-Syrian Church people in that situation.

Many thanks, too, for this distinction:


These are what I've called sincere Eastern vagantes: not Westerners playing church with no real connexion to the East except through un-Eastern, Augustinian 'lines of succession' through Vilatte or some such, but people historically related to the Orthodox, no longer in communion but 'essentially Orthodox in character', still 'part of the family', who can be restored to the Orthodox communion easily: for example the Russian Old Believers, Old Calendarist churches not in the Orthodox communion and nationalist schisms like the Kiev Patriarchate and other splinter churches in the Ukraine and the Macedonian Orthodox Church.

Sidebar: interestingly that's how the Orthodox have treated ex-Byzantine Catholics who've joined them. They were received economically with no repetition of sacraments (AFAIK nobody was rebaptised, rechrismated or reordained in the Toth split or the formation of the Johnstown Diocese/ACROD).

Dear Young Fogey,

Oh yes, "nationalist schisms . . ."

Here we go . . .

If one could show that the ROC is culturally neutral, that it is itself not "nationalist" and even "chauvinist" in character and where it has historically acted as the religious arm of the imperial Russian state in dominating and colonizing to other Churches representing other nations, such as Ukraine, Georgia et al., then, yes, what you mention is a "nationalist schism."

Otherwise, the UOC-KP and the UAOC movements for ecclesial independence from Moscow's grip aren't "nationalist" at all. They are certainly patriotic Ukrainian, but I've yet to discover a nationalist ideology involved with them.

No more than with the advocates of the American Revolution.

Alex

They're not in the Orthodox communion � the point here � but retain Orthodox beliefs and practices.

Good grief! My best advice is to have nothing whatever to do with these people.

Incidentally, Joseph Skureth was indeed ordained a Russian Orthodox priest; he was never consecrated as a Russian Orthodox bishop. Neither was William Henry Francis Brothers.

Fr. Serge

Dear Young Fogey,

O.K. !

However, the EP appears more than willing to talk with the UOC-KP and the UAOC.

I pray for a canonical resolution to the issue.

And God bless our FOGEY (First On God's Excellence Yoke!)

Alex

I'll second Father's advice.

I knew that William Brothers was never an Orthodox bishop though he ended up an Orthodox priest. I'm sure Father knows Brothers' odyssey as described by Peter Anson. He started off as the abbot of St Dunstan's in Wisconsin, a sort of joint project of either the Old Catholics or some bishop spun off from them and the Episcopal Diocese of Fond du Lac (Bishop Charles Grafton).

Brothers then took a decades-long and winding road through vagante-land before he and what was left of his Benedictine monastery, Our Lady of Mount Royal, landed in the Moscow Patriarchate. The abbey later switched to ROCOR and I think (as the Anglicans' Elmore Abbey in England spun off from and replaced Nashdom) is now Christminster Abbey, in Rhode Island for now but about to move to nice new quarters in Canada. They use a modified Tridentine Mass (the Overbeck one IIRC) and Monastic Breviary.


Thanks. I knew that the EP talks to the KP. It may be an un-Orthodox power play against the Russian Church on the EP's part (setting up altar against altar on another patriarchate's turf) but if the EP does take in the KP, the KP would be Orthodox, as happened years ago with the Ukrainians based at South Bound Brook, NJ (regularised and now Orthodox under the EP).

I'm looking for an internet site with the liturgical calendars of same Est-Catholic rites, as Maronites, Melkites, Chaldean or Syrian

That to see for each day which is the relevant color of the vestments.

(I suppose that the color of the vestments changse accordingly the day...I'm not sure. I was told that only the Coptic rite uses only the white).

Thanks

William Henry Francis Brothers is long dead, and therefore in the hands of Almighty God.

History: he withdrew from his arrangement with the Russian Orthodox Church, towards the end of the time when Metropolitan John was Exarch - probably, therefore, around 1966. He announced this by sending a Bull to the Vatican, no less.

At least one of his priests remained with the Russian Orthodox Church; he is now an old man with poor eyesight so I'd not want to disturb him, but I can ask a mutual friend if the good Father can shed any further light on the later career of William Henry Francis. By now he must be long dead.

Fr. Serge

Some time ago online I saw some pictures and articles from the late �60s-early �70s about an old vagante clergyman, very Anglican-looking, with a church around Woodstock and sympathetic to the hippies.

Did some Googling and yes, that was Brothers.

As you say, Father, he's in God's hands.

Father Serge,

Bishop William reposed in 1979, he was in his seventies at the time, as I recall.

Many years,

Neil

Actually, if I remember correctly, they retained the usage of Aramaic in serving the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom, rather than the Raza Qadisha.

Some monkeying with the search engine should produce an interesting thread on this subject from a few years back. As search words, you might try Bishop John of Urmia. Bishop John [roca.org], memory eternal, was (I believe) the last hierarch of the so-called "Assyrian Orthodox". I do seem to recall that there is still a very small community extant in either Iraq or southern Russia.

Many years,

Neil