www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing?

I wonder what those arguments would be. What is the reason to prefer Reverend Father or presumably when appropriate, Most Reverend Bishop, to Master? Who is impacted by the change?

Consider for instance how many times, if Master were retained, the faithful would actually hear the priest addressed as "Master" during the Divine Liturgy, including the proskomedia. Consider then how many times it is used overall to address the priest, and by whom.

Dcn. Anthony

Bishop Raya was not Ruthenian Catholic..............................
So what's the reason for not using the Vladkyo Blah(g)oslovi in the Ruthenian situation?

In my parish, we sometimes take petitions in Church Slavonic. Whenever I chant the Litany of Peace in Slavonic, I start off with Blahoslovi, Vladyko, simply because that is what is in the book!

In Christ,
Dn. Robert

I've recently listened to two live recordings, made on May 13 and May 17, of hierarchical Divine Liturgies from Transylvania. At the start of each, the deacon says "Binecuvinteaza, Parinte!"

So, we do find Orthodox who only say "Master" when directly referring to a hierarch.

Dave

True, Chtec, but I have never heard in Father bless since I have been Orthodox. Also, was that Romanian Orthodox? IN Portland, OR we have almost all "flavors" of Orthodoxy and all use master, even the Greeks.

But this too is a translation issue; and in translating if one does not use Master for Vladyko/Despota then one must distinguish (at least in English or Romanian it seems) who is being addressed.

So if the Romanians have the designation right (and I presume they do), the translation of the Ruthenian Archieratikon, p 29,

http://www.patronagechurch.com/Archieratikon/htm/28-29.htm

following the usage in the 2007 RDL would be Reverend Father give the blessing (or perhaps Very Reverend Father since it is the protopresbyter).

Since I doubt anyone would argue that Master is not the most rigorous (accurate?) translation, all this indicates is that in a hierarchical Divine Liturgy a priest(=presbyter) is properly addressed as Master even in the presence of the bishop.

Dn. Anthony

The recordings I mentioned were Orthodox. I also decided to check the Romanian Liturgikon: both the 2000 edition from Bucureşti and the 2001 edition from Cluj consistently use "părinte" throughout the text.

I also looked at the Holy Cross Seminary (GOA) translation (specifically, the small-sized book with the Entrance Prayers and Proskomedia), and this book also uses "Father" for "Despota."

So, what can we take this to mean? Simply that some Orthodox translators into modern languages (particularly the translators for the entire Romanian Orthodox Church) have decided to use "Father" instead of a more literal "Master."

Dave

Well, it being Greek does not surprise me at all considering that they redid their liturgy in the late 19th century. What I was told by my bishop was that a normal liturgy is one with a bishop. A liturgy with a priest is less than a full liturgy. A priest serves at the pleasure of the ruling bishop. The only time we should say "father bless", is at the dismissal.

The American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese Liturgicon says, "Master Give the Blessing" if a Deacon is serving. Seeming that the Ruthenians and the ACROD share common history more than any other Orthodox or Catholic Byzantine Sui Juris church, it would be more prudent than saying the Romanians do this or the Greeks do that.
The word Master gives the indication that the priest, the representative of Christ is to give the blessing.

The Recensio Rutena "Лїтургїконъ" - the 'standard' held in common by the BCC and the UGCC - states that at the beginning of the Divine Liturgy:
Дїаконъ: Благослови, владыко.

The recent Ukrainian and English texts prepared by the Basilians, in spite of all their faults, give:
Дїаконъ: Благослови, владико.
Deacon: Master, give the blessing.

(In all cases above, my emphasis)

I think I need to clarify again: in the Holy Cross book, the Greek says "Despota" while the English says "Father." They did not change the Greek text.

Dave

Then the service should be done in Greek for that part and skip the English!

The books prepared for the Greek Archdiocese of Thyateira and Great Britain (1995) give:
Ευλόγησον, Δέσποτα.
Master, give the blessing.

Oops! The Ukrainian should read:
Диякон: Благослови, владико.

Any comment on my thoughts here? I know it was backed up Kobzar, but the issue is, the reverend father give the blessing is an example of incorrectly changing words in the liturgy and the notion that no explanation as to why it was done has to be given.
I imagine no comment or explanation will be given for much towards those who had a hand in the "new liturgy of the BCC" most likely feel they've already won with the official promulgation date getting closer, but the people have a RIGHT to know why words were changed (or not changed). I know the explanation for many things were "well, we were trying to return to the more ancient ways (audible anafora for instance)."
What gets me is that the argument for returning to a seemingly more "correct" liturgy and erasing what a few people perceived as errors that developed over time, well it doesn't make sense.
Why? Because through all of this great speech and a book about fixing things in the liturgy and making them more "correct" goes out the window when the first AUDIBLE sentence the congregation hears wasn't corrected!
I hope I made sense. So things can be thrown out, toss in some "God loves us all" because it is "better" and more "correct," and then not even fix the first words of the Liturgy the people are supposed to hear (which, despite all the changes, you are still stuck with the improper "Reverend Father give the Blessing."

I don't expect any explanation from those that "are in the know."
Although it would be kind and loving to explain why with all the spirit of change the first line of the new liturgy couldn't even be fixed.