www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Nun to lead Penn Hills parish

Hi, Ryan.

I mean it in the Pauline sense of "all fatherhood comes from God" and in the Ignatian (of Antioch) sense of the iconic role of the bishop. Only men can be fathers. Only women can be mothers. Fatherhood is a specific vocation, as is motherhood. Both originate in God. Both men and women are in the image and likeness of God, but specific ministries are called iconically to reflect certain aspects of the Godhead. Bishops, Priests and Deacons image fatherhood (and its natural corollary - sonship). Man - ordained or otherwise - still images the fatherhood of God even if it is only in potentia. He properly exercises servant-headship in the family, whether the Church or the domestic church.

As to women, I see women (and motherhood) as being anthropological icons of the Holy Spirit. Equal in nature and dignity with men, but distinct in role and charism.

Does that help to clarify?

God bless!

Gordo

I think your remarks are way off the mark.

(1) The Sister is not taking over "to lead the spiritual life of the parish community." The visiting priest of the adjacent parish has that responsibility. The Sister will be responsible only for all the administrative duties of a parish priest. The sacramental life of the parish will not be touched.

(2) There is no cogent proof that the shortage of vocations in the Latin Church is due mainly to the discipline of mandatory celibacy. The Latin Church in the U.S. now averages 5,000+ seminarians and ordains about 10% of them yearly. (The 2007 Ordination Class produced 495 new priests!) One glaring factor that's bearing down on the number of available priests, however, is the tremendous increase in the number of Latin Catholics in the U.S. for the past 10 years, which requires more priests to minister to parishes bursting at the seams. The 19,000+ U.S. parishes now average almost 4,000 parishioners!

Gordo:

Yes, that does help. I am curious to hear you discuss the ways in which you see women as "anthropological icons of the Holy Spirit."

Thank you,

Ryan

Amadeus,

You completely misread my post. So long as her activities remain administrative and catechetical, I have no personal issue here. Again, God bless her for her service to the Church. (Although I've witnessed "scope creep" in many a parish role before. There once was this sister named Sr. Wanda B. Priest... )

Mine was a general observation about the crisis in the priesthood and vocations. Ultimately it is a crisis of fatherhood, which originates, IMHO, in the home.


Are you saying there is no shortage of priests? No empty rectories? No "lay presiders"? No priests managing three to four parishes?

Boy, where have I been all these years!

As to "no cogent proof", how would one prove such a thing anyway, apart from engaging in an experiment with two relatively similar Latin dioceses, with traditional orthodox Catholic bishops at the helm. Abbrogate the rules of celibacy in one and maintain them rigourously in the other and see which one has a seminary bursting at the seams.

Having attended a fairly conservative/orthodox Catholic college, I can name at least 15 faithful, Latin Catholic men who would have loved to have served as priests but also felt called to family life. Those are the ones I can personally name. I can guess that there were far more.

Mind you, I have no issue with celibate priests. I have an issue with making celibacy a prerequisite for ordination.

Meanwhile, there are people who go through life without the regular benefit of receiving the sacramental mysteries. Is it worth the price?

Not in my opinion.

In ICXC,

Gordo

Ryan,

I wish I could share more now, but I am not at my library. I will only say that the Syrian Patristic tradition is replete with feminine references to the Holy Spirit. Interestingly enough, the Didiscalia Apostolorum (of Syrian origin and heavily influenced by Ignatian ecclesiology) treats the ministries of the Church as follows:

Bishop = icon of the Father
Priests = icons of the College of Apostles
Deacons = icons of Christ
Deaconesses = icons of the Holy Spirit
Widows = icons of the altar table

(Scott Hahn has recently come under fire for proposing in his writings that the Holy Spirit is "Holy Mother" within the Godhead. This has actually been a topic he has been writing and speaking about for some time.)

To me, the relationship between Mary and the Holy Spirit is best explained iconologically (even the titles of Mary and the Holy Spirit...such as Advocate....seem to demonstrate a close correlation between the two). Mary, as the image of virginal maternity and the immaculate one is the perfect anthropological icon of the Holy Spirit. Someday I hope to write a theological dissertation on this topic...but not right now!

These are all, of course, random thoughts strung together.

God bless,

Gordo

The sister will presumably run the day to day business and other "non-priestly" aspects of the parish life as is appropriate - maybe it is "common," but it is necessary.

Why see her as "poor?" Her background apparently makes her very suited to do this and she is a person who has dedicated her life to the service of the faithful. I wonder, would she see herself as a "poor sister" stuck with "common" duties?

Really, running a parish's day to day operations is probably fulfilling and challenging work.

Now it would be a "sad" situation if there were no person able and willing to do that work...

Some of the services that faithful need are very, very every day, "common," and ordinary. A parish is a community, after all. Not everything the community needs or wants requires a priest. I see our pastor (good soul that he is) at nearly every social thing the parish does, working away there, too. Does this inspire the rest of us to volunteer? Oh, yeah. But do I worry that the poor man needs a rest now and again? Oh, yeah.

Since there is a shortage of priests, one way to address it is is to spread the non-priestly, non-Sacramental duties appropriately around to others who are suited (and perhaps better suited - most priests aren't business majors) to take them on. It's not cutting the priest out of anything. It's freeing him up for everything he has to do.

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It is clearly a sad situation. The head/spiritual father of the local church remains the bishop, and this poor (God bless her!) sister will help serve the common life of these parishes within the local church (diocese).

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Annie,

I don't disagree with you. I was not trying to be patronizing in any way to the good sister (is that better? ). It sounded like, from other posts, she was in for some real challenges. To be sure, anyone who runs a parish will be challenged! I would just as readily apply the term "poor" to any number of priests who work on their own to run a parish!

And look - I know enough sisters that are as tough as nails and that could run a naval fleet should the occasion call for it. They are certainly not "wilting lillies"!

And yes, there are many tasks which should absolutely be delegated by the pastor, if he has someone who can do them (male, female - doen't matter). It is truly a sad situation when few are available to assist, especially in circumstances like this. Thank God she is!

I do wonder if the church has any deacons. It looks like they could use a few!

Gordo

I worry about deacons being overburdened, too...

We have a deacon in our local SFO group. He's got teenagers, he teaches full time, he's serving as an officer in our order and he's managing aspects of a very busy diocesan shelter and rounding up volunteers and cooking and serving over there every chance he gets. He's at one of the busiest parishes around. He's several years older than I am, but I see him running around and think I couldn't handle all he does in a day. He is a ball of non-stop energy. He rarely takes a vacation or a break from serving people. Fortunately, his family is very supportive and they are a lot like him. He and his wife and kids treat serving as family time - they serve the homeless together, for example, at the shelter kitchen. I don't know where we would be without people like him. We ask so much of them, really.

I am grateful for deacons, but seeing how much this man actually does, I see why there aren't all that many of them. It is hard work.

I did not misread your post.

There is a priest shortage in the Latin Church but not due mainly to the discipline of mandatory celibacy!

My beef is your attribution, as you still do, to mandatory celibacy as the cause of the priest shortage in the Latin Church.

There are no available statistics that affirm your assertion.

It is a very good sign that Sister Dorothy understands that her position is a regrettable necessity. Presumably she will work hard to foster vocations to the priesthood in the parish.

It is unclear to us what role the sister will play in running the parish. It would be most appropriate for lay/religious administrators to handle the practical aspects of running the parish and leave the spiritual, sacramental and liturgical matters in the hands of men in Holy Orders. In fact, as long as these administrators do not see themselves as fulfilling a pastoral role, it would be good to have many more of them to free up priests and deacons for more important work.

Can anyone here explain how there is no shortage of celibate clergy in Africa, the Asia Pacific, etc when celibacy is indubitably not part of there tradition? There seems to be some correlation with the fact that that they don't talk a lot about married clergy there, my view is you support vocations to the priesthood in its current state instead of undermining it and that has some result.

Sorry, I just haven't seen that acknowledged in what is a very western centred debate; the Latin rite in "developed" countries does not make the church and has problems of its own which could be said to be in minority.

Ned

That seems like quite dangerous ground from the vantage point of an Orthodox Christian. Even using such language pietistically can be troublesome.

I agree that sacramental and liturgical matters must remain in the hands of priests. However, I have never read that the Holy Spirit discriminates based on sex in bestowing His gifts, and thus women should not be excluded from helping to form the spiritual life of a parish.

It wasn't an issue for some of the Syrian Fathers.

I'm not advocating that we somehow change our Trinitarian or Pneumatological language. But I do believe there are insights here to be explored. Would it not make sense that all of the virtues of the feminine be reflected within the Godhead? Or are we to regard the Holy Trinity as exclsuively the domain of the masculine?

I'm certainly not advocating for radical feminism (theological or social). But every heresy has a latent truth that exists either in a state of excess or deficiency. Might not a maternal view of the Holy Spirit indicate a path to somehow correct excesses or deficiencies in the current radical feminist positions? To be sure, very few argue in favor of maternity, much less authentic femininity!

Gordo

What you propose to discuss leaves the realm of discussing the topic at hand on this thread. I am strongly recommending that if you want to pursue this along this line, that a thread be started on it in either Faith & Worship or East-N-West.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator