www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall 6 Out of 10 Polled Want "WomenPriests"

The Order for the Ordination of a Deaconess according the liturgical tradition of Constantinople has been published in English at least twice.

Fr. Serge

Well there you have it 50 million flies cant be wrong!
Stephanos I

Amen, Father!

As to the importance of polls in determining orthodoxy, if they were the definitive standard, wouldn't we all be Arian? (Of course, the ever important pollsters would take special care to actually SPELL the word "Arian" correctly - unlike our friends in this Canadian poll!)

The Order of Deaconess is an interesting one in the history of the Church. It appears to not have taken much root in the Latin West, as it did in the Eastern patriarchal sees. Then again, neither did the diaconate as traditionally understood in the East!

The Syrian Church, following Ignatian typology, in the Didiscalia Apostolorum identified the role of the deaconess iconically with the Holy Spirit.

The Bishop = The Father
Council of Presbyters = The Council of Apostles
Deacons = Jesus Christ
Deaconesses = The Holy Spirit
Widows = the Altar

The prevailing questions (especially among the Latins) are: did the ministry of deaconess constitute a "major order"? - and - what was the specific service that they provided to the assembly? Regarding the latter question, I believe that part of their role was linked to Holy Baptism and Chrismation and the initiation of women candidates in the interest of preserving the modesty of the canidate and the virtue of the bishop (they would assist in the annointing). But very clearly they helped serve the material and spiritual needs of women, much in the same way that the deacons did for men within and outside of the assembly.

Regarding the former question, It appears that their place in the hierarchy of orders was slightly below that of the deacon and above the subdeacon, which really does not help answer the question. If it was a major order what does that say about the current magisterial definitions that indicate that a man (vir) is the only one eligible for major orders?

Part of the issue also seems to be the fact that SOME (not all) advocates for the restoration of the ministry of deaconess want to use it as a springboard for women presbyters. This is not a theological argument for or against the restoration of this ministry, but rather it is really a means of exploiting it as an ideological Trojan Horse to attain the "REAL power" in the Church - the presbyterate and the episcopate. So much for the spirit of kenotic service!

My own position is that the Order of Deaconess was in fact a vital ministry and a minor order in the early church that should, after sufficient study, be "restored" - but NOT by the Latins, especially after their "restoration" of the diaconate which resembles more of a "Presbyterate, Second Class"! And, I would add, only AFTER the role of Subdeacon (along with the rest of minor orders) are restored to their proper place throughout the Eastern churches, since this sets the proper "context" for this ministry.

The bottom line is that I see this order as an ecclesiastical institution, not a divine institution. I think that efforts were made in the Byzantine Church especially to align the rites of ordination for Deacon and Deaconess as closely as possible, since the East understood - and fully developed and appreciated - the distinction between the sacerdotal charism of bishop and presbyter and the kenotic charism granted to deacons and deaconesses. But there is nothing that I have seen so far that leads me to believe that deaconesses were regarded as having a full share in the apostolic charism, in the same way that the deacons were granted.

I will also mention that the Maronite Patriarchal synod voted in the late 80's early 90's to restore the order of deaconess within the Patriarchate, but was asked by Rome to hold off on doing so until the issue could be studied. Meanwhile in 2007...

God bless,

Gordo

Gordo,

We know that there was a thriving diaconate during the time of Julian the Apostate, as Pope Benedict mentioned in Deus Caritas Est, since it was the only aspect of Christianity of which Julian approved. Perhaps the "kenotic" service was "transferred" in the West to the many religious orders whose charism was to care for the poor, homeless, orphans, sick, dying, etc. I don't know the history well enough to say, but that seems to be what the Latin Rite has emphasized over the last 800-1000 years or so.

Perhaps this was due to the relatively more "wilderness" environment in the West than in the East? Monasteries in the West were frequently "outposts", and their charitable reputations attracted people to move nearby. Many European cities are located where monasteries were the first sign of human civilization. One obvious example is Munich. Since the deacon (and presumably the deaconess) was organized around the bishop, this would have implied a population center of some sort. In the wilderness, the Abbot had some of the powers of a bishop, but his direct "subjects" would have been the monks and/or nuns.

Michael

Michael,

Great points all. I would agree that the diaconal charism certainly helped to define the various religious orders and movements as they developed (Saint Francis of Assisi was in fact ordained a deacon). The Roman tradition was to appoint seven deacons for the city (seven obviously being a symbolic number) and assigning them a specific geographic section where they could exercise their caritas. That tradition was maintained, I believe, for several centuries and during the time of the Golden Age of the diaconte, it was not unusual for the deacon to be viewed as the natural successor to the bishop, rather than one of the presbyters.

After the reforms of Nicea which put the deacons in their proper place (their power and influence due to their close ties with the bishop caused many to presume to take on the responsibilities of a higher order, many also neglected the Pauline holiness code as defined in the letters to Timothy seeking after wealth and power), the presbyterate reasserted its proper place in governance after the bishop and the great decline began (especially in the West). In the West especially the deacon's ministry became almost exclusively cultic in nature (without the iconic connection being made between his role in the assembly and his role in the common life of the congregation) as well as purely a stepping stone to what one author refers to as the "omnivorous priesthood". Charitable activities were relegated to other groups, including the religious orders you mentioned.

As to the role of the deaconess, very little developed in the West. One could say that the ministry was virtually non-existent, especially in comparison to the numbers reported in Constantinople alone.

In ICXC,

Gordo

With regard to the subject of ordaining women as priests, I think there are two important facts that need to be kept in mind. The first is that prior to the 20th century, almost the only objection given to the idea of having women as priests was the "natural inferiority of the female"--a notion that was considered self-evident, at least among Medieval Western thinkers. The second is that, historically, in religions where women served as priestesses it was always in service to a goddess.

One major reason why the question re-surfaced in the 20th century is that the old objection--with good reason--is no longer regarded as valid. The "priestess-goddess" connection, however, is seldom mentioned, even though it seems to be the principal remaining objection.

FWIW, it is clear that both the Father and the Son are revealed as masculine, and the fact that "Spirit" is a neuter noun and "Trinity" is a feminine noun in Greek, Latin and Slavonic does not seem to compromised this significantly.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Gordo,

That makes a lot of sense to me, especially given those times when a sophisticated education was not so easy to come by (when has it been, I guess?). The really gifted ones would work directly with the Bishop, and the (perhaps) more ordinary talents would be priests, since they would have learned the cultic functions by their practice if not from "formal education". I know St. Ambrose was elected as Bishop of Milan because the lay people (and clergy) were so impressed with his sense of justice as imperial administrator of the area. (Being a catechumen, he was quickly baptized, confirmed, and ordained!)

This is very interesting given the present situation of the Latin Church. One of the reasons there is a shortage of priests in the US (if there really is one) is that the parish pastor is in the decision loop for almost everything in the parish, and it seems like almost every parish activity requires his presence. If the bishop could assign all the "material" aspects of the parish to a deacon that reported to him, that would free up the priests to do what only the priests can do: administer the sacraments and preach the Gospel authoritatively. Material aspects could be defined to include everything that wasn't specifically "priestly".

I like the phrase "omnivorous priesthood", since it has that note of an "all-consuming" maw: however, in the context of the present Topic we should amend it to be "omnivirivorous priesthood" since it does not include the ladies!

But, there does not seem to be any reason why a bishop could not assign the administrative and non-sacral organizational tasks of a parish to a woman, without prejudice to the sacramental aspect of the Diaconate. In which case, deaconess *might* just be superfluous. I suspect that then, however, a goodly number of American Latin Rite diocesan priests would feel like they had nothing left to do, unfortunately.

Michael

Father Deacon Richard,

That may be the case, but I would argue that some of the reasons for the resurgence of interest in women presbyters has to do with the loss of the meaning and essential familial role of fatherhood. Arguing from the basis of the notion of the "weaker sex" is, as you point out, a demeaning and idiotic premise. Arguing from the understanding of the priest as father and the father as priest antedates the Christian revelation and reveals the consistent thread of Old Testament covenant blessings from father to son to teach, govern and sanctify the family. THe bishop that "ordains" is extending the grace of his own spiritual fatherhood to his presbyters (the firstborn sons exercising the primordial rights of primogeniture) and to deacons (the Levitical second born - although first chronologically as one moves from a lower order to a higher) who serve the father and the firstborn in th patriarchal family.


From what I understand, though, the word "ruah" for Spirit is a feminine noun in the Hebrew. Theologically there also seems to be a connection between the concept of Sophia (also feminine) and the role of the Holy Spirit. (I have never fully understood or appreciated the notion of equating the Divine Word with the feminine Sophia. I would see them as distinct, though not entirely separate realities.) It also gives new meaning to the typological understanding of Mary as the Seat of Wisdom.

God bless,

Gordo

Michael,

Great points. Yes, I believe that certain administrative duties could and should be delegated to the deacons and to the laity. Delegation as a leadership principle involves transferring responsibility to the appropriate person according to their own particular charisms as well as the dictates and vocation of their ordo. In some cases it is not simply a matter of delegation, since for the laity (for instance), engaging in say works of mercy and sanctifying the marketplace and the home is appropriate to their role and not something given to them by their priest to do for him. Care for the parish, however, is a balancing act since ultimately the priest is responsible to the bishop regarding these matters. An effective priest and deacon will help to animate the laity to contribute their time, talent and treasure to the upkeep and outreach of the parish. In one sense, to borrow from Irenaeus's analogy for the Trinity, the presbyter and the deacon are the two hands of the bishop. Their joint stewardship over the church in collaboration with the laity, each according to his ordo, should image the synergy of trinitarian relations.

As to whether or not a priest will have anything to do if people get involved, I see each parish as a missionary outpost for the Kingdom of God. The last time I checked, the fields were white and ready for the harvest.

God bless,

Gordo

I found the on-line version of Dr. Scott Hahn's writings on the Holy Spirit. He writes with a clarity I find difficult to achieve.

I hope some find this insightful.

God bless,

Gordo

http://www.salvationhistory.com/library/tradition/theology/appendix%20and%20notes.pdf

PS: Pay close attention to the footnotes - particularly his references to works on the Syrian Fathers.

Fr Serge wrote: "The joke of it is that roughly the same people backing the ordination of priestesses are also anxious to abolish the Priesthood!"

This is the truth. I researched the womanpriest movement last Fall and attended one of their "services." The following link is to the article I wrote:

http://www.sdnewsnotes.com/ed/articles/2006/0611se.htm

Gabriel,

An excellent article. Kudos for your courage to attend!

I suppose this quote is the most relevant and supports Father Serge's contention:


God bless and thanks for posting!

Gordo

Having just read the link to the San Diego newspaper I'm a trifle bemused to find that this particular woman - who hopes to see the Priesthood abolished - has gone to the trouble of getting herself "ordained" twice over! Besides making her a lunatic, a heretic, and a fake, does this multiple (and empty) ritual also make her a High Priestess? Gussied up in a beige chasuble? [I had not previously thought of beige as a liturgical color, but what do I know.]

The matter of her two fraudulent "ordinations" pales to insignificance when set beside her clearly expressed repudiation of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. At that point, it becomes clear that this deluded woman is not a Catholic or any other sort of traditional Christian.

Fr. Serge (who has been baptized once and ordained once and aims to keep it that way)

Good points all. The recent success of traditional women's monastic communities in the Latin Church speaks for itself and the recapturing of the "sacramental" aspect of vocation amongst our young ladies. I know of two young ladies in our area now in postulancy, one at the new cloistered Carmel in the diocese of Lincoln, Nebraska and the other in the new Benedictine community in the Kansas City area recently invited in by Bishop Finn.

A recent article on the new Benedictines of Mary community:
http://www.crisismagazine.com/january2007/esolen.htm and the website of the community: www.benedictinesofmary.org [benedictinesofmary.org]

Many years to the Sisters and their vitally needed vocation.

"[She] has gone to the trouble of getting herself 'ordained' twice over!"

Maybe the second time she wanted God to know she really meant it.