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Coming from mixed a Rusyn/Slovakian and Italian background, I for one hope and pray that Western Orthodoxy works. I'm also glad that the Book (which I have) has two approved Liturgies, St. Tikhon and St. Gregory. It some ways it shows what visionaries Tikhon Bellavin and Raphael Hawaweeny were. Most use St. Tikhon's, because as was said, they were former Episcopalians. The Lutheran interest is a recent phenomenon and I'd guess that they'll go with St. Tikhon's as they concelebrate with Episcopalians.

In the AOCA, the parishes belong to the local bishop (although Bishop Basil has a special role). This is sacramentally correct, and was part of the obvious cause of 1054 with the Byzantine Rite parishes under the Pope in the West and the Roman parishes under the Patriarch in the East (and them perhaps not always being as understanding as they could of the members of THEIR flock belonging to the other rite). But the idea that there was no extraterritoriality based upon rite is very much in accord with St. Igntius of Antioch and the concept of the local church.

An episcopal priest who serious flirted with Orthodoxy told me that he like to see kind of a new-unia. Of course, it would not be based upon the tragic back and forth politics of Eastern Europe and the Middle East (depending upon which side is on top at the time), but rather by Western Christians voluntarily joining the Orthodox Church. He'd like a Western Rite bishop under the Patriarch of Antioch.

Although not eucharistally correct, would this be a more reasonable and perhaps attractive approach? I'd wonder about your thoughts about that?

Christ Is Among Us! Indeed, He Is And Ever Shall Be!

Three Cents

Dear Three Cents,

There is an "Evangelical Catholic Church" that is of the "Lutheran Rite" that would like to, as I'm informed, eventually be in communion with Orthodoxy.

And also, the Antiochian Orthodox Church has a special "Rite" for the Evangelical Orthodox which is the Byzantine Liturgy that allows for more hymn-singing etc. It was specially worked out for the Evangelical Orthodox who united with the Antiochian Orthodox Church, Fr. Peter Gillquist et. al.

Alex

Lutherans who are seriously interested in either Catholicism or Western Rite Orthodoxy might do well also to consider the "Evangelical Mass" proposed and published by Pastor Max Lackmann. I've seen it in English (the book, not the service itself), but it's probably out of print. If anyone can find it and reprint it, it might be a worth-while contribution.

Fr. Serge

Three Cents �

Actually, the Lutherans who have either joined the Western Rite Orthodox, or have expressed an interest, have been far more interested in the Roman (so-called "Gregorian") Rite as approved by Antioch. For instance, the new mission in Detroit led by the former Missouri Synod pastor is staunchly Gregorian, using the Roman Mass and Lauds and Vespers according to the Benedictine usage (Breviarium Monasticum).

Alex �

It's my understanding that the Byzantine adaptation for the "Evangelical Orthodox" was provisional and has been phased out, and all Antiochian Eastern Rite parishes, regardless of origin or background, are required to conform to the regular archdiocesan standards.

The pastoral provision that was referenced, was completely phased out on the tenth anniversary of the reception of the former EOC into the Antiochian Archdiocese. This was understood from the outset when they were received and that a definite timeline was given and agreed upon. The complete integration of the former AEOM was announced in all official Antiochian publications (i.e. The Word and Again magazines) when it occurred about eight years back. All of those parishes and missions now conform completely to the liturgical standards of the Antiochian Archdiocese.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Dear Venite,

Those Lutherans!

So much for Luther's reformation!

Given half a chance they all want to become Benedictines!

Better than Augustinians, like Luther, I say - must be something about the OSA that makes them want to revolt . . .

Alex

Bless, Father Anthony!

Thank you for that clarification!

God bless you and your ministry!

Alex

It might be worth mentioning here that both Fr. Paul Schneirla, the Vicar-General of the Western Rite Vicariate [antiochian.org], and Fr. Edward Hughes, who is on the commission, are former Lutherans and both were drawn to the Latin tradition ("Liturgy of St. Gregory" and Benedictine offices).

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Western Orthodoxy Blog [westernorthodox.blogspot.com]

Dear Western Orthodox,

This reminds me of what one RC priest of German background once told me.

Referring to the authoritarian attitude of a number of German Lutheran pastors he knew, he said that "That is why there could not be a pope in Germany for the Lutherans - they already had too many popes amongst themselves already!"

Alex

Too late ... some of them already have!

http://www.staugustineshouse.org/

http://www.st-wigberti.com/

http://www.svenskakyrkan.se/klostren/OSTANENG.htm

Those crazy Lutherans!

Dear Venite,

God bless them!

The only possible future problem the Lutheran Benedictines may have should they wish to go into communion with Rome is the matter of the entry of "Bl. Martin Luther" under Feb. 18th in their liturgical calendar . . .

There is a Zion Lutheran Church in Detroit that calls him "St Martin Luther!"

And they're very High Church, with statues, rosaries and very Tridentine looking vestments!

Alex

Zion is Fr. John Fenton [holyincarnation.org]'s former church.

FWIW, St. Augustine's House has a rule: if you don't know the music, don't sing along.

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Western Orthodoxy Blog [westernorthodox.blogspot.com]

Very beautiful High Church liturgies in both cases - I think Zion is what Lutheranism was intended to be by the original reformers . . .

Alex

Alex,

Thanks for starting this topic, I've never been to a Western Orthodox service before and it is interesting to hear about this from time to time.

Monomakh

This is interesting. The only Western rite I've heard of is in France and is the recovering of the Orthodox church of France before the schism. Is this same Church being discussed or are there other Western Rite? (meaning Orthodox but Western rite)
Indigo